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Old 12-02-2011, 12:33 PM   #31
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A. Whatever's avialable locally. I prefer White Wood for such framing. Generally sold here as SPF. I avoid yellow pine when able.

B. Technically you cannot bore large enough to run a 2" schedule 40 plastic pipe through a 2x4 stud. But are you sure you need a 2" vent pipe at that level?

Here's a useful boring reference.

C. See B.

D. None that I'm aware of. Framing is very individual at that level. 'Bout all I can tell you generally is that you want solid blocking in any areas where you're fixin' attach door or handrails or towel bars or seats or whatever. How you do that is pretty flexible.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:18 PM   #32
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Well, I didn't get any framing done this weekend, but I did take a new picher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
Use classic framing techniques but add extra blocking or studding in the corners along with 3" deck screws to tie everything together. Where the curb intersects the wall, we prefer a curb width of sistered wall studs properly nailed / screwed together.
Thanks Paul!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cx
But are you sure you need a 2" vent pipe at that level?
It's venting a toilet + shower + lav group, so I think yes due to the toilet. See the attached pic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cx
D. None that I'm aware of. Framing is very individual at that level. 'Bout all I can tell you generally is that you want solid blocking in any areas where you're fixin' attach door or handrails or towel bars or seats or whatever. How you do that is pretty flexible.
Thanks cx!

In the attached pic, you can see the 2" vent line running horizontally through the existing 2x4 stud wall. I have drawn in red where the shower will go, with the circles showing the mixing valve and the shower arm locations.

The notches in the stud wall are from the previous supply lines that I ripped out.

Note that the holes bored in the 2x4's are not centered. On the last stud, you can see the black ABS pipe as the hole actually broke through the side of the stud.

My choices as I see them are:

1. Reframe the wall with 2x4's with the holes bored exactly on center for the 2" vent line.

2. Reframe the wall with 2x6's withe the holes bored exactly on center.

3. Don't reframe and use some metal tie plates where the vent line goes through the studs.

Not reframing isn't a real option. I already have to move the stud that is lined up on the mixing valve, plus I have to move and sister up the stud nearest to the shower curb. The real question is whether or not to reframe with 2x4's or 2x6's. I am leaning toward using 2x4's right now.

Any thoughts on choosing 2x6's vs 2x4's?

Thanks,
Kent
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:53 PM   #33
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After looking at those hacked up studs (not your fault) I'd be inclined to frame a whole new wall in front of the other one making space for the niche where I want it, any future electric, insulation, and have nice plumb perfect wall studs at the end.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:20 PM   #34
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Paul,

A new wall in front of the old is a nice alternative that I hadn't considered before. If I went that way, I would probably only put the new wall on the shower area and leave the wall in front of the toilet + vanity alone.

Thanks for the idea!

Kent
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:45 PM   #35
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Here are a couple of shots of the final rough in. I had the plumber tear out the closet flange he had installed and now there is just a 3" riser pipe coming up for the toilet and a 2" riser pipe coming up for the shower.

The riser pipes are slightly out of plumb. The plumber said this was normal and is due to the slope on the horizontal drain line that the riser pipes connect to.

Couple of questions:

1. Is this slight-out-of-plumbness (sp) something I will be able to account for when I glue in the closet flange and the kerdi drain? Obviously I will want the closet flange and the kerdi drain to be level.

2. The next step is to backfill. My plan is to just refill the hole with the dirt and rocks that came out. I was going to use a watering can and a 2x4 to help the dirt settle in. Any problems with that approach?

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Old 12-14-2011, 02:55 PM   #36
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Have the risers been glued to the bends/elbows yet? If not, you can fudge them a little to bring them to plumb. If they have been glued, you can force them straight and hold with your backfill/concrete/re-bar driven into the ground and lashed to the pipe. In any event, you want these pipes to be a s plumb as humanly possible.

I'm not a big fan of backfilling with the same dirt/rock/crap that you removed from the hole. It can be done, but I would prefer gravel or base run (crusher run) as fill. You don't have to be as picky about compacting gravel as you would dirt. You do have to be picky about the size and shape of the gravel, though. Plastic pipe would really like to be bedded in coarse sand, with gravel placed around after the sand is wiggled in.
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:57 PM   #37
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Kent,

Before you fill anything in, does the Y arm of this Y point down towards the main drain line or is it on the same plane? Kinda hard to tell from that picture
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Old 12-14-2011, 03:12 PM   #38
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1. Yeah, and likely the same plumber that would blame the riser pipe not being plumb when he failed to set your drain level, too.

You should have no trouble blocking/shimming that riser plumb while you fill and patch there.

2. Fill with some sort of clean material to the bottom of the slab, cover it with six-mil poly, then patch with concrete mix to grade would be my choice.

Looks like you had no reinforcement in that slab, but I'd likely still use some in my patch, drilled into the sides of the existing concrete.

I thought that whole drain section was goin' up-hill, Paul, 'till I stared at it for a while.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 12-14-2011, 05:11 PM   #39
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Thanks for your advice gentlemen. My numbered questions are inline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
Have the risers been glued to the bends/elbows yet?
Yes. Thus, I will go ahead and plumb them by tying them up to the rebar I'm going to put into the slab.

1. Is plain old stainless steel locking wire ok for this purpose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
You do have to be picky about the size and shape of the gravel, though. Plastic pipe would really like to be bedded in coarse sand, with gravel placed around after the sand is wiggled in.
2. Will the big box have the gravel and coarse sand you speak of?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
Before you fill anything in, does the Y arm of this Y point down towards the main drain line or is it on the same plane? Kinda hard to tell from that picture
The y is ever so slightly rolled such that the branch is slightly above horizontal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cx
Looks like you had no reinforcement in that slab, but I'd likely still use some in my patch, drilled into the sides of the existing concrete.
3. I had planned on adding rebar based on my learnings here. What size rebar and how often should I place it and how far does it need to go into the existing slab?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cx
I thought that whole drain section was goin' up-hill, Paul, 'till I stared at it for a while.
Well, you got me thinking I should go ahead and measure every section of drain pipe for pitch, and, of course, I did find a couple of places where the pitch could be better. (I'm an engineer, so finding something less than optimal was easy.)

4. Can I dig out the existing [soil/rock] backfill under the already glued pipes and then pack coarse sand back under the pipes in order to improve the pitch in certain key spots?
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Old 12-14-2011, 05:30 PM   #40
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Kent,

It still makes me nervous. I would have put the Y pointed to the sky and raised the trap since you have room
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:11 PM   #41
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1. Yes. I generally use re-bar tie wire for that sorta thing. Stainless is pretty gross overkill, but if that's what you got, maybe it's just right.

2. Naaa, they'll have some sand, but maybe not gravel. It's not a really big deal, but you really want something packable that doesn't have pieces in it big enough to hurt anything in there. The dirt you took out might be usable, but I agree with Injineer Bob that I usually wanna pewt something else back in there. For me it's usually "three-quarter-down" road base material on accounta there's always a pile of that at home.

3. Number 3 should be adequate. I drill into the old four inches or more and I like to do it in a direction such that I must then bend the bar substantially to make it point where I want it. Makes a mechanical joint so I don't need to fool with trying to cement the bars in the holes.

You be moving any of that plumbing and you'll own it. But if it's not right, that might be easier than calling the guy you paid to install it wrong.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:57 PM   #42
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Quote:
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You be moving any of that plumbing and you'll own it. But if it's not right, that might be easier than calling the guy you paid to install it wrong.
That's a tough one to decide.

Since the plumbing is under the slab, I wanted to pay a professional plumber rather than risk a DIY mistake that would cause me headaches down the road. Of course, if you want it done right...

So I debated calling vs. not calling, and I ended up calling the plumber who asked me what I wanted him to do. I asked him to come out and measure the slope himself and tell me if its ok or if it needs to be fixed. He's coming on Monday.

We'll see what he says. In the meantime, I'll ask the following cringe worthy question:

1. Assuming you have the space to do it, can you pack in some backfill material to raise the drain line in certain key spots in order to fix the slope?

My concerns would be:

A. Putting stress on the already cemented fittings

and

B. The possibility that after everything is backfilled and buttoned up, the drain line might return to its current position.

FYI, I'm talking about raising a pipe or a fitting by a quarter inch here or there.
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:04 PM   #43
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You've got a little wiggle room, Kent, depending upon just what part you wanna move and where and what it's connected to.

Keep in mind, too, that those big pipes (the 3" and 4") require only about 1/8th" per foot of fall in most places. The smaller ones require 1/4" everywhere.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:08 PM   #44
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The pipe has some bend-ability to it and once bent will stay there. Just check out the pipe rack at the Home Depot. You'll see lots of bent PVC pipe. Granted its gently sloped, but bent none the less. How much you can fudge depends on pipe diameter and length, and by feel, which I can't do from here. Perhaps by expressing your concerns to your consciencious plumber will get things corrected if they need to be.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:40 PM   #45
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Thanks again for patiently answering my [non-tile] questions! I'm going to take a closer look tomorrow and see what I can determine.

FYI, the toilet to the backwater valve is 3", and the output of the backwater valve is 4" all the way to the sewer line. I was aware of the 1/8" slope for 3" and 4" pipes, I just didn't know if it applied for my situation. Thanks for the tip.

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