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Old 07-13-2011, 01:05 AM   #1
AZKIDD38
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Shower Mod – Divot Method using Hydro Ban Waterproofing

I am a DIY in the middle of a shower mod and had some questions.

Shower progress and particulars:
- shower base has a cement slab with box cutout with 2” dia. ABS riser for drain
- riser was cut down to 1.1” below slab to minimize thickness of single layer mud bed
- using Oatley drain bottom (photo 1) with EBBE drain top (do not want to use Kerdi drain)
- installed ½” thick hardibacker on shower walls
- using divot method at drain with Hydro Ban waterproofing on walls, formed divot, mud bed and curb
- height from top of drain base (bottom flange without drain clamping ring) is 0.9” from cement slab when installed on riser
- using 8” diameter frying pan which is 1.7” tall to form divot
- furthest distance from center of drain to wall is 33” or 2.75’
- using Cararra Arabescata 2” octagon polished tile (white marble shown in photo 4) on floor and 12”x12” similar tile on walls
- using Laticrete 254 Platinum thinset (white) to install tiles
- curb will be constructed using cement cinder blocks

Below are some questions I have regarding the install:
1. Calculation of mud bed thickness at walls and curb is 3.3” Is this correct?

My calculation is as follows:
Height from top of drain base (bottom flange without clamping ring) to top of slab 0.9”
Height of 8” frying pan used to form divot 1.7”
Mud bed slope at Ό” per foot across 2.75' 0.6875”
Mud bed thickness at walls and curb 3.3”

Note: used 1.7” (height of frying pan) in calculation instead of 1.4” (extra height of EBBE drain top unscrewed 3 rotations from drain clamping ring) because the lip of the formed divot will be higher when using the frying pan.

2. Confusion on proximity of top layer of Hydro Ban to EBBE drain top called out in Detail ES-WP301 of Hydro Ban installation instructions (photo 2)?

After divot is formed, Hydro ban installed in divot over outer edges of bottom flange, bead of Laticrete Latasil applied between bottom flange and clamping ring, clamping ring installed, thinset applied over Hydro Ban in divot (to aid deck mud adhere to Hydro Ban), pea gravel added to cover weep holes, deck mud used to fill divot area and striked flush to top lip of divot.

Next is where I get confused with the proximity of top layer of Hydro Ban over the divot area to the EBBE drain top as depicted in Detail ES-WP301.

Shouldn’t some sort of gap exist between the top layer of Hydro Ban over the filled divot area to the EBBE drain so water can drain down into the divot area?
Also, where do you apply the Laticrete Latasil as shown in this same detail drawing? Is the Latasil applied between the outer edges of rectangular drain grate and the tile in lieu of using grout?
I uploaded photo shown in this forum (photo 3) with no top layer of Hydro Ban over dry pack in divot area.
I agree that a top layer of Hydro Ban should be applied over the deck mud fill in the divot area to minimize efflorescence (discoloration of natural stone) especially when white colored marble is used on the shower floor.

3. What would be the minimum Curb height required for this Shower Mod?

Given the mud bed thickness at walls and curb calculated at 3.3” in Section 1, would a 5” high cement curb (unfinished) be acceptable for this shower? Or should curb be higher so a minimum of 2” high tiles can be installed on inside face of curb for aesthetics?

4. Is it recommended to use a sealer on white polished marble to minimize discoloration? If so, should I use a Porcelain Sealer by DryTreat?

5. Is it recommended to use Laticrete’s SpectraLock epoxy grout with white marble? If so, what grout thickness should be used between the tiles? I believe most installers use 1/16” grout lines when using white marble tiles for a better look.

I have read the Frankengueze tutorial and other threads pertaining to using the divot method and application of Hydro Ban as a waterproofing membrane and have learned much from the John Bridge forums.

Photos attached below:

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Old 07-13-2011, 04:54 AM   #2
bbcamp
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1) You mud bed calculation seems OK.

2) I dunno. I am not a proponent of using a liquid membrane liner and clamping ring drain fitting unless you use the reinforcing fabric to create a bridge between the flange and membrane. If you do that, you shouldn't need any sealant (Latisil) anywhere down there. If you add the membrane over the divot, I wouldn't necessarily want a seal between it and the upper part of the drain fitting. It's a weak link that I would think be best to leave out than to count on for your waterproofing. Of course, this requires that the drain's weepholes be free and clear.

An aside, but important one: when applying thinset to the divot area for bonding the deck mud, keep it away from the pea gravel drainage bed so the weep holes stay clear. Also, check them after the membrane is dried.

3) The curb height is required by plumbing code be a minimum 2" above the drain, and is recommended to be 2" higher than the shower floor adjacent to the curb. You must do the former, you can cheat the latter, especially if you intend to use a glass enclosure.

4 & 5) I like Spectralock grout, especially in a shower. Laticrete recommends sealing pourous stones before grouting, and I recommend doing a practice board to verify that the sealer will keep the Spectralock out of the stone's surface. 1/16" is pretty tight for Spectralock, but you can hold back about 10% of the sand (part C) to make it easier to work in. Spectralock is sanded grout, so doing the test board will also verify that it won't scratch the soft polished stone. If it does, you need to find a cement-based un-sanded grout.
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Old 07-13-2011, 08:06 PM   #3
AZKIDD38
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Hi Bob,

Thanks for your response, but I am still confused about your response to question 2 regarding top layer of Hydro Ban over mud packed divot and the schematic from Hydro Ban instruction sheet on proximity of this top layer of waterproofing near top half of drain and their suggested use of Latasil sealant.

Also, Brian with Ceramictec and Gueze no longer use fabric in the divot when applying Hydro Ban down there. Brian mentioned that he first smears a bead of 100% silicone seal where the deck mud at the bottom of the divot meets the top flange of the bottom half of the drain (see photo1 he posted in this forum shown below), second he applies a couple layers of Hydro ban over the divot area (with no fabric) and over the applied silicone sealant (photo2), unsure what is shown in his third photo as the top layer upto the EBBE drain body. Is this Hydro Ban applied in this last photo over the divot area around the top of drain?

Maybe Brian or Gueze can help with this?

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Old 07-13-2011, 09:35 PM   #4
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If your prep meets Hydro Bans requirements, fabric is not required at the divot and caulk is not required at the bottom of the divot between the mud & bottom drain flange.

You can use fabric if it makes you feel better or want extree insurance, but not required if prepped properly. Don't know why you'd want caulk down there as it will interfere with water moving down the drain. Don't forget to protect the weep holes with pea gravel, spacers or equal before putting the mud in the divot.

On top of the mud within the divot, next to the drain grate, i think it's a good idea to leave a little gap in the Hydro Ban. So, paint it on to within 1/4-1/2" of the grate, and leave the last bit unpainted.

I'd also not caulk the tile at the grate. Just grout it like everywhere else.
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:04 AM   #5
bbcamp
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Jeffery, the difference between me and pros like Brian and Geueze is they are pros, and I am not. My comfort level is not the same as theirs. You can pick whose advice to follow as you please, and you won't hurt my feelings one little bit.
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Old 07-14-2011, 03:09 PM   #6
ceramictec
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Jeffery,

Don't let my 3rd picture there confuse you. What your seeing in the picture is actually thinset floated over the pea gravel to make the correct height for the mosaic to match top of Ebbe grate and not HydroBan or HydroBarrier.

I have done some divots and painted the divot and then painted the top right to the drain. Recently I have stopped painting the top and leaving the top divot unpainted with a membrane.

I also don't use silicone between the clamping and lower section, I see no need for it since I want water to escape there and in the weep holes into the drain.

Fabric is good and if I'm using HydroBarrier I might use it in the divot since I am using it in the corners. With HydroBan I don't use it in corners so won't in divot. The silicone at the mud to bottom flange I think is a good thing and allows a little flexability there to help the liquid bridge it.

I mostly use Kerdi drains now with liquids and will do fabric across the flange and mud connection for reinforcing.
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Old 07-14-2011, 05:38 PM   #7
AZKIDD38
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Thanks for the response Brian,

Are you using packed deck mud over pea gravel to fill the divot?
or are you just filling the divot with thinset over the pea gravel?

Since I will be using using Cararra Arabescata 2” octagon polished tile (white marble) on the shower floor, would it be a good idea to apply a top layer of Hydroban over the finished divot area upto within 1/4"-1/2" off the drain grate (like Dana suggests) to avoid efflorescence or discoloration of the white Marble?

Also, have you used spectralock epoxy grout with Cararra Arabescata tiles in the past? Not sure if this type of sanded grout would scratch the surface of the white marble if used. Maybe if I used a good sealer on the stone like Porcelain sealer by DryTreat prior to using the spectralock grout would help from etching/scratching the suface of the tile.

What are your thoughts on this....

Thanks
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:23 PM   #8
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Use packed deck mud over the pea gravel. Skim a little thinset to the sides of the divot yo bond it to your liquid membrane.

I would recommend the use of fabric in your divot, IMO it takes years and many shower builds to become comfortable enough with the process to omit the fabric. I actually used fabric in the last divot I did, as I only had time for 2 coats, fantastic insurance.

I've never waterproofed a filled divot's top surface, but the possibility of it staying damp longer and appearing discolored is a possibility, but I have never heard it from one of my installs.

use spectralock or sanded grout and grout softly. I hate unsanded grout on a floor unless the joints are 1/16". Again, my opinion. Make a test panel and grout that.

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Old 07-14-2011, 10:18 PM   #9
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Read SpectraLocks limitations on light marbles getting stained by the epoxy.
Do a test on some set scrap tile.
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