Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 01-05-2004, 01:45 PM   #1
Brewbeer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Western Mass
Posts: 83
Bathroom – Total Gut & Redo

Hello tile folks !! I’ve just started undertaking a re-do of my upstairs bathroom, made possible by all your guidance which helped me put in the other bathroom downstairs, (thread ID 5289) which actually makes a remodel of the upstairs bathroom possible !!

This is the plan – new sink, toilet, cast iron tub, tile floor, tile tub surround, and wall tile up to about 48 inches. All the demo of the old bath is complete except for the water-damaged sub floor, which I plan on tackling this evening.

My initial question relates to replacing the sub floor – what do I use? The local orange box has about 19 different kinds of plywood. 3 ply, 5 ply, CDX, sheathing, 19/32, etc. I know I need to use two layers of plywood and CBU for the floor tile, but with all the plywood options, I need your advice as to what get. To replace the water damaged original sub floor, I am guessing that I need to cut out the bad sections up to a joist, and use the same thickness plywood that is already there (1/2 inch, I believe). Is the second layer of plywood also 1/2 inch, or should it be thicker?

Another question is the suitability of the floor for tile. The floor joists are 2x8s with 2x6 sisters, 16 inches on center, with a span of 11 feet 6 inches between the sill and the center main beam. An additional 2x8 joist was added in between the joists near the weight bearing edge of the tub. There is a wall in the basement that is located along the span 3 feet from center beam, but it only has a single top plate.

The bathroom is 4.5 feet wide and 8 feet deep, with the joists running parallel to the 8-foot measurement. There is also a 32-inch by 60-inch alcove for the tub not included in the above dimensions.

I’ll post a couple of pictures tomorrow of the demo and floor joist framing. Thankx !! --=--Ed.
Brewbeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 01-05-2004, 01:55 PM   #2
tileguytodd
Official Felker Fanatic
 
tileguytodd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Northern MN
Posts: 14,398
Reccomended would be an Exterior 3/4"(23/32") AC grade.
Sturdifloor cuts through the crap and makes it simple.Find Sturdifloor and you have the best available IMHO
Welcome back BB i remeber your last project.This oughta be fun
__________________
TIP YOUR TILE MAN, His Retirement plan is not nearly as lucrative as yours and his waning years will be far more painful to boot.
He gives much so you can have a Beautiful Home!!
tileguytodd is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2004, 02:00 PM   #3
Brewbeer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Western Mass
Posts: 83
The rotted plywood subfloor is removed. The plywood is just a hair under 5/8ths, would that qualify as 19/32nds?

Also could I get the injuneer to check on my floor strength and tile suitablity? The one thing to add to the above info is that downstairs, there is a wall parallel to the joist in the middle, the one with the yellow wires stapled to it.

I've also removed the toilel flange. It was broke and not at the correct elevation for the new tiled floor. Any recommendations as to what to replace it with?

Here's the photo of my project so far:
Attached Images
 
Brewbeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2004, 07:26 PM   #4
John Bridge
Mudmeister
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Rosanky, Texas
Posts: 68,766
Send a message via AIM to John Bridge
I'll put a note in Bob's in box for you.
John Bridge is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 12:16 AM   #5
electricjet
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: St Louis County, Missouri
Posts: 30
Question

John I would be interested in this myself!

If you treat the floor joists as a double 2x8 then you are good for tile but if you treat them as double 2x6 then you are not.

Any wall running parallel to the floor joists and having a single header is NOT a loadbearing wall. If there is a wall directly below that wall in the basement then it may provide some deflection resistance for the center of the floor but it is not meant to carry the load of the floor above.

Additional blocking and an extra layer of plywood layed on the diagonal might help with deflection.

Interesting problem!


Ken
electricjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 06:55 AM   #6
bbcamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 30,274
Hi, Brew, long time!

I looked back through my notes (yes, I'm taking notes, so behave!) and last time you were through here I calculated you floor would be OK with the 2x8s with the 2x6 sisters. Your floor comes in a little better than L/400.

If you salvage some of the original 1/2", and patch in the damaged areas with the same thickness, then adding an other layer of 1/2" will be plenty. It saves you from having to buy 2 different thicknesses and there will be less waste. As always, if height becomes an issue, use Ditra instead of 1/4" CBU.

Ken, the way to do this is a little involved. The deflectolator can't handle it unless you figure out a way to fudge the joist depth to match the composite shape of the sister'd beam. I run it out manually, adding the moments of inertia of the two joists and so on. For grins, I ran the problem using the average depth and came close. The closer the sister is to the original joist, the closer the answer.

Laying plywood on the diagonal serves no purpose at all, as far as I can see. What you want to do is to get the surface ply directly across the joists so the wood fibers span the least distance possible. It is the surface fibers (or grain) that makes the strength of the plywood, the inner plys to a lesser extent, and any cross-grain plys practically meaningless. However, it is the cross-grain plys that give the panel its dimensional stability, so the trade-off is multiple plys so you get as much long grain as possible next to the skin, but as many cross grain plys for stability.

One last thing, interior walls, even those not built to be load bearing, can add stiffness, if not strength. I usually neglect them, but if you could measure deflection, you would see that they add something. After all, we're talking about live loads. Not always there, and not always everywhere at once.
bbcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 08:51 AM   #7
Brewbeer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Western Mass
Posts: 83
Thankx so much, bb.

The last time was about a future kitchen tile floor job, which I prolly won't get to until this summer, but the situation with the joists is the same, 2x8s with 2x6 sisters, same span. I figured I was good to go with tile, but I just wanted a little bit of that hand holding you folks in this forum are so good at.

Final tile floor height isn't that much of an issue; the adjoining hall is hardwood over the subfloor. I figure that at the most it will be 3/4 inch higher than the hall.

The cast iron tub is supposed to arrive at the store on Friday; if it does, I've got some friends who will help me get it in next week.

The places where the subfloor has been cut - should I put some blocking under those areas so that where the edges of the sheets meet have some support, or is this not necessary?

Also, any plumbers here have any thoughts about the replacement of the toilet flange?

Thankx again to all, this forum is the best.
Brewbeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 11:01 AM   #8
bbcamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 30,274
Yeah, support the cut edges. A section of plywood slipped under one side of the cut can be screwed in from the top. Let it overhang so the new plywood can be screwed into it.

On that toilet flange, I'd go ahead and replace it. It is a bathroom, you know!
bbcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 11:21 AM   #9
Brewbeer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Western Mass
Posts: 83
The toilet flange is an unresoved issue at this point. My understanding is that it doesn't require complete resolution until the final tile floor is installed. Do I have this correct?

Originally I was gonna use a cast iron flange that slips in the inside of the existing pipe, and seals with a rubber donut. Some input I got over on the GardenWeb plumbing forum was that the closet bend, being heavy cast iron, requires some kind of support. Therefore, I was thinking that it might be better to install a traditional cast iron flange that is held in place with oakum and lead. The flange therefore would support the closet bend by resing on the floor.

The idea of trying to DIY a lead-and-oakum joint is a little daunting.

Thoughts?
Attached Images
 
Brewbeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 04:07 PM   #10
Sonnie Layne
Da Poet
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
Posts: 5,171
How's it supported now?

It's not that daunting, I happen to have my father's lead pot hangin' around somewhere. I'd modernize, provide support elsewize. The connection itself can't be counted in support terms anyway.
__________________
da' poet
Sonnie Layne is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-08-2004, 08:22 AM   #11
Brewbeer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Western Mass
Posts: 83
Thankx Sonnie.

The support it has now is the oakum and lead joint at the waste stack "wye", and the tub drain (which is connected to the lower piece of the closet bend) that runs off in the other direction. One suggestion was to wrap it with metal strapping tape and tie that to some blocking installed between the joists.

This seems like an easier solution. I prolly could get a good bite on the thing just under the hub in the pitcher.
Attached Images
 
Brewbeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-08-2004, 09:44 AM   #12
Sonnie Layne
Da Poet
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Dallas, TX, USA
Posts: 5,171
pipe strap makes more sense to me. That's what it's made for.
__________________
da' poet
Sonnie Layne is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-26-2004, 09:58 AM   #13
Brewbeer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Western Mass
Posts: 83
Ok, have made some (slow) progress.

Got the new sub floor in, the bathtub, the rough plumbing, and the CBU installed. I'll try to post a picher or two in the next few days.

I'm ready to tape my CBU seams. Can I use a bag of modified thinset that I have left over for last years project to do the taping? It's about 10 months old. I thought I read somewhere on here that old thinset should not be used.

Thankx !!
Brewbeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-26-2004, 10:03 AM   #14
bbcamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 30,274
I don't know, but if you shake out the sofa, you might scare up $12 for a fresh bag of thinset.
bbcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-26-2004, 05:51 PM   #15
John Bridge
Mudmeister
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Rosanky, Texas
Posts: 68,766
Send a message via AIM to John Bridge
Throw the old thin set out and get a new bag. You'll be using it anyway. Quit being such a cheapscape.

Seriously, I wouldn't trust the old mix.
John Bridge is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:59 AM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC