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Old 03-20-2011, 06:46 PM   #1
mctile
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2011 TCNA Handbook

I have spent the last couple of days getting familiar with the new handbook. A few things have poped out at me. First, the section dedicated to stone has only two accepted installation methods of stone installations over wood. The accepted methods are a mud bed over plywood and CBU over plywood.There is no mention of an accepted method with an uncoupling membrane bonded directly to a plywood underlayment. Any idea why this method was not accepted for stone over wood?

Second, the one-coat method seemed a bit vague. Can the one-coat method be used on wall in shower receptors? Is the one-coat method included in ANSI 108.1C or is it wet set only? Why is the one-coat method not acceptable to bond glass tile directly to? If a liquid membrane is used on top of a one coat mud bed, is it then acceptable for the installation of glass tile?

Any insight or input is appreciated!
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:51 PM   #2
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good thread Mathew. i was just going through it myself
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Old 03-20-2011, 07:06 PM   #3
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I know the new handbook was out at coverings, but is the book available readily yet? I'm itchin to get my hands on it...
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Old 03-20-2011, 07:35 PM   #4
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The new book is available from NTCA and it is included in your NTCA membership.

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Old 03-20-2011, 07:41 PM   #5
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Matthew, I was fixin' to start this thread this very evening, so thanks for gettin' it going.

I had more problem than that with the stone over wood methods that were published. The first, F141-11 STONE allows the unbonded mud bed to be installed over a single layer of 5/8ths" plywood. I gotta wonder if that was not a mistake that got overlooked.

And the method makes no mention of increased deflection requirements for natural above those for ceramic tile. Just says the structure hasta meet code, and we know that's L/360.

Has the MIA abandoned their requirement for double layer plywood and L/720 joist deflection?

I'm thinkin' that method, as now published, is not something I'm gonna be real comfortable recommending to our visitors. Not even as a minimum requirement.

Let's all spend a little more time with the book and see if we can have some discussion here that will maybe catch the attention of some of the committee members who were involved in the new publication.

I know there was some urgency to get it published by a date certain, and that could certainly account for some of the editorial errors I've found, but some of this goes well beyond that, methinks.

On the purely editorial corrections, let's make note of those here, too, and I'll pass them along to the publisher. Such as where it says in those wood-framed floor methods that we should refer to the notes on page 10 like we have for years...........'cept page 10 is now the Specialty Tile Selection Guide.

The more eyes we have proofing this book, the more of those we can help them correct, eh?
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Old 03-20-2011, 08:03 PM   #6
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The stance of the TCNA is pretty clear on page 30 under "Natural Stone Tile Installations Over Wood Substrates". No mention of an L/720 deflection rating and they fully sanction single layer plywood stone installations with an unbonded mortar bed.

Wow. Bit of as shocker.
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Old 03-20-2011, 08:08 PM   #7
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Im wanting to get my hands on a printed copy also.
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Old 03-20-2011, 08:11 PM   #8
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As I read the new requirements for the one-coat mud wall over gypsum board, Matthew, given the new "Environmental Classifications," it is no longer acceptable to use that method in residential shower.

Think we just put Davy outa bidness.

I'm wondering what known failure rate, or other problems, would have precipitated that change. Been building those with roofing felt or polyethylene moisture barriers for a whole gaggle of years, and others have done it successfully for many decades before me, I do believe.

Perhaps someone who attended the discussions will enlighten us on that.

Actually, I hope some of those committee members will give us a good bit of background on the revisions this time, considering the scope of it.

[Edit]

Those and other technical publications are always available through the TCNA website, guys.
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Old 03-20-2011, 08:13 PM   #9
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So can those of us that didn't attend Coverings get our hands on it or is it only a privileged of joining NTCA?
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Old 03-20-2011, 08:15 PM   #10
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Here you go guys - the pdf order form is at the bottom.

http://tileusa.com/publication_main.htm
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Old 03-20-2011, 08:17 PM   #11
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Wow, so far it sounds like they need to come up with some sort of a supplement to include in the book making corrections to these ways. I can't imagine they would abandon their previous l/720 requirements, not to mention the other mistakes you mentioned. If these methods are followed by someone who's none the wiser, that could be a big problem down the road for someone. I know an engineer who still uses the 2006 book. How many people are going to use the 2011 book for some years To come before updating, with possibly incorrect information? Or perhaps you guys misread something? Seems unlikely, but now I need to get me a copy!
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Old 03-20-2011, 08:25 PM   #12
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Thank you!
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Old 03-20-2011, 09:09 PM   #13
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I can answer some of the questions but not all of them. The stone guide on installations was not reviewed by the committee and submitted by MIA. Not sure where the L/720 went and won't be nobody around to ask for a few days. It got to be a push around publication time and we were out of meeting time. This revision has been 2 years in the making and represents many 1000's of hours worth of work. Committee members are not compensated for the 100's of hours they each spend on the document. This issue in particular was a big drain for many of us when we have to otherwise earn a living. For each of the last 4 meetings we have each received a 100 to 150 pages of material to digest and discuss in a day or two. No doubt some things slipped through the cracks when you change the size from 88 to 304 pages, a third of it new material. Constructive suggestions are welcome and I will start a log duly noting them, beginning with CX who calls me on a Sunday morning to see if he is either blind or mentally impaired based on what he read. James Woefel was a big part of this heading up the NTCA delegation so if your an NTCA member, he is your guy.

First question, why no method for uncoupling in stone, none was presented for consideration. The committee does not solicit methods but considers those presented.

One coat is not acceptable for glass because of potential shrinkage. One coat with a membrane is a method the glass manufacturers could not agree on. Based on performance history, it hurts some and helps others. The standard is no membrane under glass due to lack of consensus.

The one coat over gypsum has been problematic and received non-uniform actions from code officials on a National basis. In wet set applications, some code officials have considered the mortar a bonding matrix.

In the past an errata sheet was issued with corrections when warranted. When the printing order, it goes in based on projected sales for a period of months. With the reorder any editorial corrections can be made.
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Old 03-20-2011, 09:21 PM   #14
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Thank you Dave. And thank all that have commited their time to the committee. All us tile guys owe all of you a debt of gratitude.

I believe I speak for many of us when I say that the reason for the questions are to better understand the principles underlying the revisions in order to make informed decisions when choosing a installation method.
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Old 03-20-2011, 09:27 PM   #15
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Well said Matt!!

And thank you Dave, and the rest of the committe!!
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