Tub to Shower Remodel

[kendog2]

We have removed a tub and plan to install a door-less tile shower in our kids' bathroom. The house was built in 1990 on a concrete slab (not post-tension). The inside measurements of the shower will be approximately 32"x72". We plan to build a 5' tall wall about 48" long leaving 22" to 24" for the entrance.

The photo below is not mine. I found it on a forum. It shows the type of design we want to do. Ours has the toilet on the opposite side. Our shower will be 6' wide rather than 5'.



We have converted the 1 1/2" tub drain to a 2". In the process of breaking up the concrete, my husband punctured a copper pipe. He wasn't able to solder a new pipe in it's place because he couldn't remove the water from the pipe. (He tried but the pipes kept re-filling with water. To solve this problem, he replaced the copper with pex pipe and shark bite connectors. My first question is whether this was a good solution. Is it all right to cover the pex pipe with concrete as long as we wrap it with the foam that is designed for insulating pipes and plastic before pouring the concrete? Will this meet code? Since my husband is out of work, we hope to avoid hiring a plumber. However, we want to do the job right. Please see the photo below and let me know if you see any problems.

We are in the process of moving the shower drain to the center. DH plans to do a sloped mud and tile floor. I have read a lot of posts about the Kerdi system. I am not sure if we should use Kerdi. We are wondering if the Kerdi is over-kill and perhaps not necessary in our area? We live in the high desert of Southern California so humidity and mold is not much of an issue for us.

I don't know if Kerdi is available here. Will any other membrane work the same way? Would it be all right to use a paint-on membrane like Red Guard instead of the Kerdi membrane? If Kerdi is the way to go, do we need to use it on the walls as well as the floor regardless of the dry climate?

I just ordered John's book, Tile Your World which will hopefully reduce the number of questions I need to ask.

We are ready to install the drain. How do we decide at what level the drain should be set in relation to the floor? We want to make sure we get this right before pouring the concrete. (If we go with the Kerdi membrane, I will order the Kerdi drain and the Kerdi Shower Book.) Any help will be greatly appreciated.

[lostinLA]

My first question is whether this was a good solution. Is it all right to cover the pex pipe with concrete as long as we wrap it with the foam that is designed for insulating pipes and plastic before pouring the concrete? Will this meet code?

I haven't had need to use the Sharkbite fittings, but my understanding is that they're approved for potable and hydronic systems, in-wall without access, and for burial in concrete -- that said, you should always check with your local building inspectors to make sure that they agree. I've heard mention of some municipalities that consider the Sharkbite to be a "mechanical fitting" and must thus be accessible, but that may be someone else's uninformed opinion (I read it in a forum), and the majority of comments I've read say that inspectors have no problem with them, provided they're installed according to the manufacturer's instructions and are otherwise sized, supported, etc in compliance with code. And yes, you should cover/wrap the fittings before burial in concrete, according to the manufacturer; apparently, brass can corrode when in contact with the ingredients in concrete.

We are wondering if the Kerdi is over-kill and perhaps not necessary in our area? ... Will any other membrane work the same way? Would it be all right to use a paint-on membrane like Red Guard instead of the Kerdi membrane? If Kerdi is the way to go, do we need to use it on the walls as well as the floor regardless of the dry climate?

No matter how dry your climate is, I'm assuming it will still be wet in your shower, so yes, you should use Kerdi or some other waterproofing membrane. Even in a dry climate, the water from an unsealed shower is effectively trapped in the wall and floor and will get wet again every time you use the shower, so it'll never really dry out; which means mold, deterioration of the materials, and eventual failure.

Some people like RedGuard. I don't trust it, but that's just me. I had a house with a 3rd floor shower that was improperly installed and believe me, it's worth it to do it right the first time. The money you spend on Kerdi is nothing compared to the cost of ripping everything out and re-doing it later, not to mention the cost of repairing all the consequential damages caused by a leak.

You can get Kerdi via mail-order. I live in L.A. and couldn't find it locally, so don't feel bad if it's not available where you live. Try tile-experts.com. Great people, and they offer 24/7 phone help with your project.

We are ready to install the drain. How do we decide at what level the drain should be set in relation to the floor? We want to make sure we get this right before pouring the concrete.

One easy way is to stub out the drain a few inches higher than you think the finished floor will be, then use an internal pipe cutter (search google products for options, about 20-50 bucks will get you a usable one) to cut it down to the right height. The pipe is sometimes in the way when you're trying to do the mortar bed if you do it this way, though - especially if you're working in a tight space.

You should be able to estimate the height by adding up the thickness of the bed, liner, thinset, tile, etc. and get pretty close. If you end up using the Kerdi system, the drain comes in two pieces and can adjust to fit your finished surface height. Read the install instructions at the Kerdi site.

Good luck!

[Deckert]

If you are still undecided about how you are going to build your shower, then don't put your drain in yet. For example, If you decide to use Kerdi, you will need a kerdi drain.

[kendog2]

We are progressing with our doorless shower. The wall is framed in. We have installed a Moen 3330 3-function transfer valve with a pipe extension for the hand-held slide bar. Please advise on whether this is the best placement for the valve and water supply. We're not sure if we should place the slide bar on stud #2 or #3 and where to put the water supply valve.

We plan to use the hand-held shower to shower our daughter who is disabled. She will be seated when I shower her. We need to decide whether to install a corner bench in the back near the #3 studs or use a portable bench in the center of the shower closer to the # 1 stud. If we do the corner bench and place the slide bar on the #3 studs, I wonder if I will get soaked by the water coming toward me. The black line shows where the bench would be.

If we go with the portable bench, we could place it in the center where the wall would stop the water from coming out. We could place the slide bar on the #2 stud so the water is flowing away from the doorway. In that case, should we move the valve a few inches to the left so the slide bar isn't as close to the valve? Would it look strange to have the power supply on one side of the valve and the slide bar on the other side?

Since we can't afford to purchase the hand-held and slide bar yet, I can't experiment to see how it would look and if the hose would hang properly. Any advice would be appreciated. The last photo shows the type of hand-held shower head that I am considering. (I like the way it extends out unlike others that seem to stand up.) It is a Kohler Forte but I don't know if it would work with our Moen valve.

[bbcamp]

Kendall, I don't have any first-hand experience with the shower you are considering, but for mock-up purposes, making a wand with some common plumbing parts and a short length of un-reinforced garden hose should help you decide where the parts should go. Adding blocking between the studs where ever you think you may need it is a good idea, too.

Considering you situation, I think a portable bench may be your best option. It will allow you some flexibility as your daughter grows, and come resale time, you can remove it.

[kendog2]

Thank you, I will try that.

Does anyone else have suggestions on whether we should move the valve or water supply or leave them where they are? My husband is anxious to put in the drywall so we need to decide right away. Thank you.

[bbcamp]

Can you move the shower control closer to the entrance so you can adjust the temp without getting wet? You can put the shower arm anywhere you want it, just run the pipe over to it.

[kendog2]

Actually, the valve is close enough to the entrance for me to turn it on without getting wet. My concern was with getting wet from showering my daughter in the corner since the water would be shooting toward the entrance. I think we will go with a portable bench to allow flexibility with the placement as you suggested. We can always upgrade to a nice teak bench when funds allow. Thanks for your help!

[kendog2]

I am planning to order a Kerdi drain in the next day or so for our tub to shower conversion but I need to find out if it will work. Hope someone here can help. We dug a trench in our concrete slab in order to move the drain about 34" from the shower head wall. Unfortunately, there is a pipe that crosses the trench for the drain. The top of that pipe is 5 ½" below the floor surface. Can we run the drain pipe over the cross-pipe or will it cause the drain to be too high? When I attach the shower drain pipe, the top of the drain pipe will be 2 ½" below the floor surface. Will this allow us to attach the Kerdi drain at the right height? Thanks in advance for your help.

The cross-pipe is about 1/2" and covered in blue material.

[Kman]

If I understand your post, I think the drain may be too high. By the time you put an L on the drain to turn it up, it's going to be close to the slab. You could dry-fit the pieces together to be sure. The kerdi drain flange should be around 1 1/4" above the slab. You can have more, but it makes for more work. Just make sure you have about 1/4" of fall per running foot of drain.

It's also good to have the trap directly below the drain. If it's not, you could have some gurgling as the shower drains.

By the way, the pipe that's in your way is a water line.

[kendog2]

Thank you so much for your reply Kevin. I don't have the drain yet but think you're right. Do you have any suggestions on how to correct the problem? Can we dig down and place the drain pipe below the water line or would we have to dig another trench in the concrete going the direction of the water line and put some elbows in the line to make it run beneath the drain? Hope it isn't the latter.

Would it be better to give up on moving the drain and leave it close to the wall where it was placed for the tub? We have never done a project like this but I understand that the floor would be steeper if the drain were not centered. Seems like it would look tacky.

[muskymike]

Hi Kendall, you'll be fine where it is. When you git the J-bend in make your tail piece high enough so the drain is about 3/4" off the finished concrete.

[jadnashua]

You really want the trap directly underneath the drain. It's really hard to see the actual elevations involved, but from the outlet of the trap, you need to maintain a slope of 1/4" per foot down or more. Keep in mind what the trap does, it prevents sewer gasses from flowing out in to the living space and having a long trap arm means more surface area for soap scum, body oil, hair, etc. to sit and fester when not blocked by the trap's water seal. The 2" pvc is about 2.5" OD (about 1/4" walls). Take your trap and set it tight up against the bottom of the drain and see where the outlet arm will be in depth. That will give you an idea where things will end up and if it will fit.

[kendog2]

Thanks guys. I really appreciate your input. I ordered the drain. Will let you know how it works out.

[kendog2]

I would like to use a rectangular Better Bench for our new shower. However, I am not sure if we can make it fit. Apparently the rectangular bench is adjustable from 33.5 to 62 inches. Our shower is 31.5 inches wide without the tile. I was wondering if it is possible to cut the bench to make it adjust down to 31.5 inches? If not, we could build our own bench. We want the type that doesn’t go to the floor so we can stand under it since it will be on the same wall as the shower head. My husband said he could attach 4x4s to the walls and build a plywood frame over them. Has anyone done this? Would it work as well as using a better bench?

Another option would be to use the triangular Better Bench. I would really appreciate any suggestions as we will be ready to install tile soon.

The shower head is on the wall to the left.