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Unread 02-22-2008, 01:44 PM   #1
handyhousemaid
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Wow! This site Rocks, but I am still a bit confused. I bake cookies for good advice!!

Good Day. I have spent my free time the past two weeks enjoying the site and learning much. I am a new DIYer. I have a 1906 house in Midwest Indiana. I have gutted a 2nd floor bath, to studs and joists. Once I started I couldn't stop!! My poor husband is patiently showering under a garden hose in the basement until it's all back together.

Please forgive my ignorance, but after reading about 8 threads regarding subfloor I still have a few questions.

Let me paint the picture. I have 2X8(actually 1 3/4 X 7 3/4) floor joists 16" OC. The second floor is supported by a first floor center wall which the 2nd floor bath straddles, half on each side. The only other support is the exterior walls which are 13 feet on either side. I used the deflecto calculator and entered in these amounts and of course it says is NOT ok to install tile. My husband swears I should only enter the bathroom measurements, which is 8 feet(he really wants it to say Marble is OK!).

The entire second floor was 3" pine t&g. No subfloor, just 3" t&g on the joists. It is everywhere, even under the walls(except the Center support wall). I cut out the all of 3" pine t&g to access all plumbing so I could correct the leaky problems and reroute wastelines and water supplies. So now that is all done! Regardless as to what the deflecto says, I need a floor. What kind is where I am lost.

1.) Can I plan for tile?
2.) If I am correct and we may not, is there a fix so he may have his tile?
3.) If he is correct and may have the tile, please advise on subfloor. I understand what not to buy, how to lay 1st layer perpendicular, to use lots of glue(it's my friend right?), use hot dipped galvanized not plated screws, to leave little spaces.

Then I'm lost! I want to marry into the 3/4" t&g at the threshold with as little transition as possible while maintaining integrity.

What thickness ply subfloor? What comes next, more subfloor, thinset or underlayment(cementboard)?

If the bottomline is no tile...can you please help me tell my husband he's wrong and he should continue being the great guy he is and be patient with his demo lovin' wife!?!


If anyone has time to answer, please type slow! I am just learning.

BTW, where do I send the cookies?

Thanks,
Kim

Last edited by handyhousemaid; 02-22-2008 at 02:27 PM.
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Unread 02-22-2008, 02:01 PM   #2
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Sorry, unless you beef up the joists, you aren't destined for tile, let along stone on the floor in the bathroom. The size of the room has no effect on the deflection - the length of the joists underneath are what dictate things. If you were able to double (sister) up the joists, you'd get to a point where you could do ceramic. The sisters need to span at least the middle 2/3'rds of the unsupported length.

Schluter is readying a second version of Ditra. It might allow ceramic on your floor, but I haven't seen it available yet (haven't really looked, but figured I'd hear about it here when it was ready for distribution). They were still running tests last I heard. It is thicker and can absorb more flex than the original product (which will remain around). To simulate the effect of the thicker stuff prior to committing to build it (quite expensive to make the tooling), they installed two layers of Ditra. This might work on your floor, but you'd not get a guarantee...how lucky do you feel?

A stone tiled floor requires two layers of plywood. A good starting point for the first layer is 3/4 T&G, glued and ring-shank nailed or screwed (deck screws, not drywall) to the joists. Then, a second layer, minimum 3/8, more is better, is screwed on top of that, with the ends and edges offset from the layer beneath. You won't need to worry, as your floor isn't strong enough to handle it.
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Unread 02-22-2008, 02:11 PM   #3
handyhousemaid
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I thought so...

Thanks for your quick answer. Gives me time to make a great dinner and break the news.
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Unread 02-22-2008, 02:14 PM   #4
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Jim is right on you need to sister the joists add 2 layers of plywood then your ready to rock. it doesnt pay to take short cuts.
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Unread 02-22-2008, 02:23 PM   #5
handyhousemaid
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The only real way to do this is probally to rip out the ceilings below huh? The floors above aren't an option.

This same deflection probally explains the cracks in the ceilings at the middle point of the joists then too.

If I went to the exteme of ripping out ceilings below to beef up the joists, Would I need to both sides? Since the bath straddles the center support wall below?

Thanks
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Unread 02-22-2008, 02:25 PM   #6
handyhousemaid
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Another crazy lady question:

Could I install the floors as directed and then beef up when I move to the next project of tearing out the first floor? Or do I need to tear up my whole house now? hee-hee
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Unread 02-22-2008, 02:35 PM   #7
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Yes, you'd need to do both sides at the same time. SOmetimes it isn't very easy, as there may be ducts, wires, and pipes in there that make adding a sister to each joist really tough, so you might be rewiring as well. A plaster ceiling, like tile, doesn't like deflection.
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Unread 02-22-2008, 02:41 PM   #8
handyhousemaid
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Luckily no ducts and only one light fixture. Just a husband scared out of his mind about what he might come home to next! Thanks again.
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Unread 02-22-2008, 02:55 PM   #9
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I think you might want to wait for a second opinion on the joist stiffness question. I believe you indicated that your bathroom is straddling a support wall underneath (is the first floor support itself supported by a foundation?). I think this could change things, and I'm not sure the deflecto can exactly address this situation. You might try to get bbcamp, the engineer, to comment.
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Unread 02-22-2008, 03:04 PM   #10
handyhousemaid
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Thanks for the input. The 2nd floor bath straddles the 1st floor center support wall. This 1st floor center support wall is supported below grade with an approx 7 1/2 foot block wall the entire span down the center of the house with the exception of a small doorway which is only supported by a 2x6 laying flatwise. This doorway is 2 floors below bathroom entrance area.

How would one get this information in the right hands for an opinion?
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Unread 02-22-2008, 03:20 PM   #11
handyhousemaid
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[IMG]100_2234.jpg[/IMG] This is the 'hole' thing.

[IMG]100_2235.jpg[/IMG] This is the floor.

Looking at the center support(towards the left) the joists run 64" to the left wall and 22" to the right wall. The joist support is not exactly centered in the bath.

We will be tiling about a 7X10 space minus a 48" X 35" space in the corner for a shower.

Am I concerned over nothing considering the size?
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Unread 02-22-2008, 03:34 PM   #12
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Welcome, Handy. Please give us a first name to use. Go to the UserCP above, find Edit Signature and enter it there.

Your photos didn't appear. Maybe try again. We like pichers.

But they won't likely tell what we really need to know, which is the longest unsupported span of the joists under the area to be tiled. If there area support walls below the joist, they would shorten the unsupported span, eh? If there is a support beam in the center of the tiled area, you must know the unsupported span of the joists on each side. And in the case of the support beam in the center, you must also note how the joists are connected there if they are separate joists going in each direction.

I think I disagree with the others on the need for two layers of plywood on top of your existing sawn board subflooring. You must have two layers of subflooring, but that board floor, if it is nominal one-inch and in good condition, would serve as the first layer.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 02-22-2008, 04:15 PM   #13
jadnashua
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Ah CX, you missed that she's removed it to do the plumbing...and that it's 13' to the outer walls. There isn't any subfloor in the bathroom now...
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Unread 02-22-2008, 04:24 PM   #14
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Thanks, Jim. First thing I've ever missed on here.

I shall just go back to work and let you fellas handle it.
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Unread 02-22-2008, 04:25 PM   #15
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Does that mean I kin' have Cee Exe's cookies, huh, kin' I?
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