Bob V's Bathroom Remodel

[Bob V.]

Hi Everyone- This is my first time posting here at JB, although I’ve been lurking for awhile. From what I’ve seen, this is the place to be. Great info is readily share between pros and DYIs, w/o a lot of attitude.

I’m planning a total bathroom remodel, and have most of the fixtures already. It’s not the first time I’ve done this type of project, but it will be the largest.

I have purchased JB’s Kerdi Shower Book and read numerous threads about the benefits of Kerdi, and plan on going that route. So I don’t need to be sold on that decision. My wife and I have pretty much agreed on most of the planning ideas as long as she gets her travertine.

My primary concern for starters, is the floor framing, since I’m planning on a barrier free, or curbless shower, for handicap accessibility of our daughter. I know that without a curb I will have to cut out a portion of the existing floor joists and sister in addition framing to compensate. I have some ideas that I’d like to see what the experts have to say.

The footprint of the bathroom is 12’ by 8’. The existing floor joists are 2x10s, 16” on center, spanning the length of 12 ft with accessibility from the basement. One end these floor joists sit on top of an I-beam, while the other end is has been trimmed to fit inside another I-beam so the joist bears its weight on the lower flange.

The shower area will be 4’ by 8’ at the rear of the bathroom, the end where the joists fit inside the I-beam. My plan is to sister the full length of the 2x10s, with Fir 2x6s, created from 2x12 ripped in half, so they span from I-beam to I-beam. Then cut out the 4’ portion of the joist to create a sunken shower floor for the mud base. However, since the bathroom is above the furnace and water heater in the basement, the existing venting runs too close to the joist to allow sistering on the desired side of the floor joist. So I plan on sistering two 2x6s to the floor joist, with the first one sandwiched between the 2x10 and the second 2x6. This way, 5 out of 6 ends of the floor joist/sisters will bear on the I-beams.

I used the Deflecto tool, but since I have unusual dimensions with floor joist of different heights, I played with the dimensions and found that a joist height of 7”, width of 4.5”, 16” on center, spanning 12’, translates to a deflection of L / 825, passing for both tile and natural stone. So I think I’m good to go, but I could also frame a supporting wall in the basement that would assist the floor joist, especially where the 2x10s will be trimmed.

All of this might be over-kill, but without a good foundation, I might have problems in the future. I’ve attached a drawing of existing and future framing to refer to. Pictures will follow if need be. Thanks in advance to any and all opinions….

[Marge]

Bob, welcome to the forum!

Pictures will follow if need be.

Pitchers are mandatory...at least if you want to keep me all those other people from hounding you! We love pitchers around here Bob.

And as you probably already know from lurking, please keep all your questions right here on this same thread so we keep track of everything.

Best of luck on your project!

[Dave Hessel]

Good on ya Bob. I don't think anyone's going to object to a little over-engineering on your part.______________________ Dave

[Davy]

Hi Bob, welcome. There is a thread in the liberry that has lots of good reading, "shower constuction info" is the name. Good luck.

[Bob V.]

Marge suggested that "Pitchers are mandatory", so I followed past threads, downloaded IrfanView, and played around with a few pictures. I also saved the framing layout as a jpeg for in-post viewing. Thought it might be easier that way. The pictures are taken from the corners of the bathroom.
Framing pictures will follow in the next post.

Demo starts this weekend..

[Bob V.]

Here are the pictures of the existing floor framing. Please notice what I'm up against with sistering the joists from beam to beam, with existing furnace and water heater venting in the way, and how one end of every joist has been notched to fit inside the I-beam. Once demo has started upstairs, I'll be removing the existing supply and drain line to facilitate the addition of the new joists. Any and all comments are welcome...

[Bob V.]

Demo is in progess and has come to the point where I need to cut the wire mesh that is imbedded in the plaster skim coat at every corner. I don't really care about the walls, since most of the drywall is coming down. But, I intend to leave as much of the ceiling intact if possible, and later put of another layer of drywall over the existing ceiling to cover the results of the demo. That being said, I really dont want to damage any more of the ceiling than necessary.

What are some good methods to cut this mesh?

[Davy]

Tin snips is what we use most of the time.

[lou432]

Welcome aboard Bob! Tin snips work as Davy says but I run into that every so often here in New England . I use a 90 deg angle grinder with a metal blade in it ,it cuts it like butter . Use caution always ,gloves ,safety glasses etc....

[Marge]

Bob, oooooooooooooooo, pitchers. Thank you!!!!

Are those all you have?

[Bob V.]

Progress has been slow, but demo is pretty much complete, and framing has begun. Since I'm doing a barrier free, or curbless shower, I'm working on the floor framing now. A floor joist that was clipped for the tub drain and also fell short of the I-beam because of the old chimney chase, has been replaced and sistered. The remaining joists have been also been sistered upto the point where the shower floor will drop. I plan on trimming the tops the floor joists in the shower area, and sistering them as well. Where these sisters cross, a beam will span the joists supported by a 2x6 wall.

The shower area is approx 3.5'x7.5'. Benches will be at boths ends, leaving a shower floor of roughly 3.5'x5'. This will affect 4 floor joists that will need to be trimmed. But trimmed how much? JB's E-book states that with a typical install, dropping the floor 2" is adequate. And that makes sense. One inch of mud under the Kerdi Drain, and the other inch for the slope. With 1/4" per foot of slope, and the drain in the center, I figure that a 2" drop will work. So I plan on using 2x8s to sister the joists in the shower area.

However, a recent thread by Chuck Stevenson on his "No Curb Walk-in Shower" Bathroom addition, states that a drop of 3 to 4" was needed to accomodate the drain/mud pitch etc.. I realize that the larger the shower is, the greater the drop would need to be to slope correctly. But his shower, although large, wouldn't seem to need a 4" drop, only to be filled up with mud to get back to the same level as the floor.

Chuck's postings of his Bathroom addition has been one I have been following for a while. He has been doing great work, and his workmanship is excellent.

I'd like to post to his ongoing thread with questions regarding the floor framing, but I'm afraid to interupt the storyline. Perhaps he or some one else can set me straight on the needed drop for my size shower.

Below are some recent photos of progress and framing. Note that in one picture, there is a 2x6 placed next to a floor joist showing a potential 3"+ drop.

Suggestions and Comment are needed.....

[Bob V.]

During the demo, I tore out the top layer of 5/8" subfloor by cutting it into 18" squares. This allowed me to get rid of the vinyl flooring all at once instead of trying to strip it off, which leaves the adhesive/backing to deal with. Now I have just the remaining 1/2" plywood subfloor which is water damaged in several areas due to tub/shower wall leaks. Since I'm putting in the curbless shower, and about 1/3 of the subfloor will be replaced anyway, I'm looking for a recommendation for new subflooring. Should I stay with the original, and just replace like in kind, 5/8" over 1/2"? Or can I just use 3/4" Sturdyfloor. I plan on using Ditra in the Main Bath area, and door threshold height is a question I have. If I go back to the 5/8" over 1/2" plus the Ditra and then tile, will I have a slight step up into the bathroom?

[Bob V.]

Bump-

Any experts out there to reply to my concerns for curbless shower framing and sub-floor questions.

[Brian in San Diego]

Bob,

If I were you I'd rip up the 1/2" and replace with 3/4"...I'm not familiar with sturdyfloor, but if it's designed to take the place of 3/4" ply it should be ok. I see the brand Advantec T&G being mentioned here. I didn't read you entire thread, but I am making the assumption that this is ceramic or porcelain not stone. The 3/4 by itself is not enough for a stone installation.

Regarding your shower "drop", I'll defer to someone with more experience. I didn't note if Chuck's shower is a kerdi shower or not. A traditional preslope/liner/final slope is thicker than what you need for a kerdi shower. A kerdi shower would have 1 1/4" at the drain and then whatever thickness you end up with to get from there to your sides with 1/4" per foot. So three feet from the drain your deck mud should be 2" thick.

Brian

[Bob V.]

Brian- Thanks for the response. Early in the thread I mentioned that travertine will be used on the floor, but in a 1x3" mosaic/brick pattern. Would this still force me to use two layers of plywood, and if so, I'd probably go back to 5/8" over 1/2". If not, then I'll go with the Advantec T&G. Is that readily available at HD or Lowes? I have not seen it at the local Menards...

Regarding the "drop" for the shower. Yes, Chuck's bathroom is a Kerdi/shower and Ditra/floor install. And based on your comments, the "drop" height between the two subfloors would only need to be the 2". If so, I feel that I can go with 2x8s for sistering the trimmed floor joists in the shower area.