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Unread 01-09-2003, 07:41 AM   #1
psdonald
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Cracks in Pre Slope

Hello all:

Been doing lots of reading on this site. Thanks for such a great site. Starting major bath remodel to include tile shower with masonary monument seat, tile floor and tile around soaking tub

I know everyone likes pictures so I have uploaded several to:

http://www.pbase.com/psdonald/bath_project

Followed combination of several of the Liberry articles to start the tile shower.

Felt paper with lath generously stapled to sub floor of two sheets of plywood 1/2 and 5/8. Plywood nailed and screwed to 2x10 floor joists on 16 centers. House is about 15 years old. Shower being installed in a former tub shower combination alcove 40x60 in size.

Question:

I thought I was doing pretty well but after installing pre-slope, I noticed several hairline cracks appeared in pre-slope around the thin area around the drain. No cracks in the outer edge area of the preslope. If I step on the preslope around the drain, I notice slight movement. Sub floor was pretty solid, but since it is wood not perfect, I suspect this might be combination of small movement in the lath concrete combination and a little plywood flex. Do I need to worry about this or will the mortor bed bridge over this the create a solid floor.

I am sure this will be first of many questions. I will continue to post pictures of progress.

Thanks for your advice,

Pete
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Unread 01-09-2003, 09:59 AM   #2
drew
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Hello Pete,

Welcome to the boards, the pros will be along shortly to answer your questions. Took a peek at your gallery pics, looks like you're on the right track. Happy tiling and keep us posted.
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Unread 01-09-2003, 10:09 AM   #3
bbcamp
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The mortar bed will be 1" thick and have lath bedded in it. Should work. Preslope just shapes the liner to guide the water into the weep holes.
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Unread 01-09-2003, 01:12 PM   #4
madmax
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It wont matter. The pan is going to act as a slip sheet between the new setting bed and will prevent the crack from telegraphing through to the new floor. I think your preslope was probably too thin at the drain. Your finish slope has min 1" of mud at the drain.
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Unread 01-09-2003, 06:32 PM   #5
davem
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Hi Pete, welcome.
That's a good looking shower so far. I was told minimum of 1 1/4" of final deck, 1 1/2" is better. I was also told not to bother with lath in the final deck, although some guys do it. Are you going to fur out the studs with 1/4" lath so that the cbu doesn't bulge at the bottom from the liner?
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Unread 01-09-2003, 07:20 PM   #6
Scooter
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Blocking

Great looking shower. You are missing some blocking along the two stud bays where your supply lines are. No big deal, but I would block those areas with narrowed recessed blocks sistered against the studs and some three quarter plywood spanning the stud bay. This is especially important if you are using Hardibacker, which requires blocking on all four corners.
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Unread 01-09-2003, 08:34 PM   #7
John Bridge
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Hi Pete, Welcome.

No problemo.

I'm looking at your curb, though, where it angles into the end wall. When you mud it, it's going to be sticking out beyond the end of the wall. I wonder how you'll handle that.
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Unread 01-10-2003, 11:35 PM   #8
psdonald
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Thanks for all of your advice:

Couple more questions and some replies to your advice:

Plastic or roofing felt for moisture barrier. Seems most use plastic, I have both, any advantage of one over the other.

I have some Custom float bedding mortar, leftover from preslope, seems you guys like the Sakcrete sand mix, can I mix the two for my final deck mud. I take it they are the same, but Sakcrete is just cheaper.

John B./Davem, In the shower seat article you built your monument seat directly on top of the membrane and then floated the floor later, does it matter if I floated the full floor and then did the monument seat on top of all of that or is it preferred to build the seat structure first and then float the floor up to the seat. My thought for doing latter was to have a nice continuous final deck an also to stay off the membrane as much as possible after it is installed.

In Tom Meehan's shower pan article on Cape Cod Tile, he mentions putting felt paper between the preslope bed and the membrane as an extra layer of protection for the membrane agianst abrasion. That sounded like a good idea but haven't seen anyone else mention doing that. I also thought I would run felt around the bottom of the floor between the blocking and the membrane to protect against any protruding blocking nailheads etc.


Plan to take BBcamp's advice and put lath in the middle of the final deck just to help with any floor flex and will plan to do 11/2 thick final deck.

Davem: affirmative on putting in 1/4 furring strips to help smooth out walls for membrance thickness.

Scooter blocking you see out was at top of old tub, will be adding an additional 2x4 blocking on top of the 2x6's I initially put in for the bottom blocking to insure adequate support around bottom of base.

Planning to use Hardibacker on the walls since I thought that was superior to durock, etc, but after reading Tileguytodd and others on this site not so sure, but it has been bought and to much work to return.

John: Thanks for you detailed look at my curb. I think I might be able to make what I have work. Curb at angle corner does sit back about 5/8 from edge of drywall on endcap of wall. If I make curb 3/4 thick and put tile on wall end cap (Anyone have any problems with tile on the end cap wall), with angle of wall I think mortar joint between end cap tile and curb tile can make up the difference and will look okay. Other thoughts or ideas welcome.

Planning to work on finishing up the block, furring out and installing a pro form niche tomorrow, and try to get some upper layers of hardibacker on as wel as install the membrance, will post more pictures of the progress.

Thanks again for all your help.

Pete
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Unread 01-11-2003, 01:46 PM   #9
John Bridge
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Pete,

Doesn't matter whether the seat is above or below the floor.

The tar paper won't hurt, but it's not necessary. In the old metal pan days (lead and copper) they used tar and tar paper to separate the metal from the cement, and the practice carried through. PVC and CPE don't really care what they are up against.
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Unread 01-13-2003, 10:55 PM   #10
psdonald
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Well I got the blocking in around the bottom and in the middle at the hardibacker joints so all edges of the hardibacker have support. Went with plastic for the moisture barrier and hung the upper layers of hardibacker and installed the proform niche, which by the way is waterproof. I filled it up with water and put it in the bathtub overnight to test it. No leaks.

Put felt paper down on top of the pre-slope and around all the lower blocking to help bridge the gaps a little and provide a smooth surface for the PVC liner.

Got the pvc liner in but have some question about properly attaching the dam corners. I used silicone caulk to attach them, but not sure if that was correct, the silicone isn't real sticky and the corners will pull away from the liner. Should I have used PVC cement. Went with the caulking because corners don't fit tight as a result of the angle of curb. It looks like silicone caulk will peel right off as I tested by caulking two pieces of liner together, should I peel off, start over and use the PVC cement.

Another question, when attaching hardibacker on horizontal surfaces of tub should I put thinset on the framing top plates and then screw the hardibacker strips to the two top plates or can skip the thinset and just screw.

Thanks,

Pete

Updated pictures posted to http://www.pbase.com/psdonald/bath_project
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Unread 01-14-2003, 07:04 AM   #11
John Bridge
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Thin set is always a good idea under horizontal CBUs.

They make a special glue for seaming PVC liners and for attaching the corners. Oatey's product is called X-15 (Home Depot).
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Unread 01-14-2003, 11:15 AM   #12
Mark R DIY
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Pardon my ignorance, but what are the black pieces on the curb?
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Unread 01-14-2003, 11:33 AM   #13
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the black things are shower damb/outside corners. several mfg. offer them. they are avalible on line at www.noblecompany.com or in some areas H.D.
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Unread 01-14-2003, 09:10 PM   #14
psdonald
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Finishing up shower pan

Got the X-15 pvc cement this evening and will glue up this evening.

How long do I need to let it dry before doing the leak test.

When putting up the lower CBU/Hardibacker board in the shower, I think I am suppossed to hold it that off the bottom of the pan a 1/2 inch or so, do I hold it off the sides and top of the curb as well.

Thanks

Pete
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Unread 01-15-2003, 08:55 AM   #15
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recently saw product called pro form IT IS A PRE MADE CURB!
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