"Heaving and Popping" tiles problem

[bluffman]

Hi, 1st time posting on this site so bear with me...My sister in law who lives in South Miami ,FLA area has most of her home tiled in 18" ceramic (I think) tiles which have almost completely popped up or actually Heaved up at grout joints. This past Thanksgiving, I was visiting and some tiles
heaved up at the joints about 5-6". It looked like an earthquake hit. She has experienced this situation for the past few years. The home is approximately 10 years old,the tile is in thinset applied on slab on grade concrete which is definately not the problem other than it may not have been cleaned before the tile installation. The area I personally witnessed heaving up last week appeared to have too much mortar below and improperly notched as the mortar looked to be "poured" onto the slab and then rather than notching the mortar, it looked like they just ran a thin "groove" through it with a knife blade or a screwdriver or something. The tiles seem to be separating from the mortar, as the mortar is not on the tile when we removed it after it pulled up. Any comments or advice? The builder(s) are long bankrupt and out of the picture so she's stuck with a real issue but I'd like to clarify the problem(s) for her and avoid another disaster. THANKS

[cx]

Welcome, bluff. Please give us a first name to use.

Without benefit of seeing your SIL's floor, or even a picher thereof (we like pichers. ), I'm going to declare this an installation error and the cause of your "tenting" tiles to be a lack of movement accommodation.

How's that for arrogance?

I'm gonna guess that if you look around the perimeter of the tiled areas that you will find the tiles butted against the walls or grouted between the tiles and walls.

We can further speculate that at least some of these tiled areas are subject to the direct rays of the 350 days of sunshine through large windows and patio-style doors and that there are no expansion joints of any kind in the field of the tiles.

And perhaps some of the tiled areas are subject to moisture during some parts of the year?

But it's almost certainly an expansion kind of problem. Her tiled floor got bigger than the room and had no where to go but up.

If my presumptions are correct, avoiding a repeat is as simple as following a few simple and basic rules for floor tile installations. Big PITA to hafta replace the floor, but I don't think there's any reason at all it can't be done successfully.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[bluffman]

Thanks much for the reply. My name is Rich and I live in Minnesota and have visited my SIL the past two Thanksgivings. My wife and I drove down there this year with a pickup full of tools & equipment to do her numerous handyman/oddjobs. Obviously pictures are out of the question now(should've taken them while I was there. I think from a little research I did prior to posting the first thread, that you're right as to the tile expansion. A number of sites also said that over time that concrete(slab) actual shrinks or contracts while the tile expands kind of doing a "double-whammy" on the floor. She's got a big, costly repair job ahead. Too bad but at least the info provided here may avoid a problem a second time around. THANKS AGAIN!

[cx]

Well, Rich, we don't normally accept pichers that ain't been took by you personal like, but in this case, given the distance you'd hafta drive, we'd prolly accept some took by your SIL, eh?

[GloriaJH]

I just wanted to express my appreciation for the information in this forum.
I did a Google search about "heaving ceramic tile", and this forum came up on the first page.

After browsing through other entries - this was the ONE that was able to identify exactly what is happening to our ceramic tile floors.

We live in the Palm Springs, California area - hot, desert, and large sliding glass doors to take in the view of the mountains.

Our house was built in 1989, and it took almost 14 years before our family room made its first "tent" ... got some sound effects with it, too.

We were concerned that the problem might be with our slab - we do experience earthquakes here, you know. But, each time we removed the tile to replace it, the cement sub-floor was just fine.

It was just the other day, after experiencing another tent city in our family room that we concluded that the grout must be expanding some way, causing the tiles to heave - without breaking the grout, and that the tile wasn't "glued" down correctly.

We were trying to decide what to do about the flooring, and had just about decided to replace it with carpet (yuck). Now, after reading your forum information - guess that's the best (least expensive) way for us retired folks to remedy the situation.

I've heard also that since we get very little rainfall here, that when it does rain that the slab goes through some changes, too. We have no cracks in the ceilings or walls, or the sub-floor where we've removed tile for which we're very thankful.

I'll be referring others to this forum - it contains a wealth of information!
g

P.S. would you stop that poor dead horse from getting hit, please?, I hate to see any animal or creature getting hurt - even dead ones

[cx]

Welcome, Gloria.

There's no reason y'all can't replace your tile floor with a properly installed tile floor and have it last the better part of forever. It's actually pretty easy to avoid the tenting problems with proper movement accommodation in the tile surface.

As for the horse? Sorry, we find it necessary to beat him quite regularly hereabouts. Just part of the program. And we check regularly to ensure that the horse is still dead and he don't give a rat's patooti about the continued beating.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[GloriaJH]

We'd love to replace it with tile - mostly because we do live in sand which can seep inside (especially when we get our desert wind storms), and cleaning sand out of carpeting is another whole topic.

The thing is - it seems the cost for diggin' up the old, and replacing it is around $3-5000k. Then, on top of that - we're looking to move to Colorado, so the "forever" isn't as important to us as the cost, if you can understand.

We originally built this house as our "forever house", made sure it was built well - as best we could - but we now have no family in Southern CA, they are in New Jersey Philadelphia area, and in Conifer, CO area - ... not a hard decision as to where to move - less expensive, and less populated in Colorado.

We're still willing to get more quotes about the tile, but the carpet probably will be our best $cost$ return when we actually do sell the house - especially in the kind of Home Sales' Market we're experiencing today.

Thanks for the encouragement - guess I'll keep an open mind, and consider getting more quotes on restoring the tile floor.

Best to you!
g

[gardner]

This isn't a suggestion, just a question for the experts.

Is it feasible to do any sort of repair on this sort installation? What I picture would be to pull all the shoe moulding and/or baseboard and run a kerf around the perimeter of the installation, fill that with caulking. Then run a kerf across the floor, along the grout line in a couple of places to make expansion joints. Fill the kerfed grout lines with matching sanded caulk.

Would such a treatment save or extend the life of a floor like this well enough to be worth the effort?

[cx]

I see no reason a fella couldn't do that, Gardner. Maybe someone else will point out something I'm missing, but should be doable.

No need for caulking in the perimeter joint, though, if it's to be covered by base trim.

My opinion; worth price charged.

[knippd]

I live about 7 degrees north of the equator, near the Panama Canal, and having the problem on my terrace (under the sub-tropical sun) that was described by others.

I have learned that this has not only happened to others in my condo building, but other buildings and towers in Panama City.

Yesterday a friend said it has happened in the lobby of his building for the second time in some months.

My floors are totally tiled, but there is a tile baseboard covering the perimeter, but I imagine that the tile is simply grouted against the walls. And it seems that the visible grout between the floor and the baseboard was never sealed, so after years of dirty mopping, the perimeter grout has turned black.

But none of this is a surprise. There are "craftsmen" here, who know nothing, teach others who will know less.

Several weeks ago 8 large wall tiles in my bathroom simply left go and crashed to the floor.

I'll try to insert some fotos of the terrace:

[ceramictec]

Hi Dale, Bienvenida

I have been to Panama City and up to Boquete a few times and have been in shock at the workman ship of the tile installed there.
and I see bad jobs all the time here in Florida.

There are "craftsmen" here, who know nothing, teach others who will know less.

and that is the sad thing about the watering down of the trades.

the lack of a membrane and expansion joints is the culprit of your tiles demise.

[knippd]

Yes, but I have seen Spanish tile work that has survived a half century in Colombia and Perú.

The electrical here is even worse.

I am having this work done because I am preparing my condo to be sold.

I have to get the hell outa here!

It's not only the trades (I already fired one for this job), but everything from banks, insurance company, and even service in restaurants is sometimes a challenge, and it's not simply a language problem.

Yesterday that same friend and I stopped at the casino in Hotel Panama to have one of their burgers for lunch. Food was good, and service was acceptable, but paying the bill was something else.

It was 30 minutes of total confusion, and not only did neither of us get our jubilado discount , but after returning home I discovered that I had my friend's Panamanian carnet (ID), and he had mine!

I had another message, but have managed to lose it!

[knippd]

I live about 7 degrees north of the equator, near the Panama Canal, and having the problem on my terrace that was described by others.

I have learned that this has not only happened in my condo building, but others in Panama City.

Yesterday a friend said it has happened in the lobby of his building for the second time in some months.

My floor is totally tiled, but there is a tiled baseboard covering the perimeter, but I imagine that the tile is simply grouted against to the walls.

I'll try to insert some fotos:

[ceramictec]

Originally Posted by knippd

and even service in restaurants is sometimes a challenge, and it's not simply a language problem.

familiar with the hotel Panama and yeah the restaurant are hard to get them going but the 8 Churros for a $1

[jadnashua]

Your tile came off because of no expansion joints and being grouted tight to the walls. You need to account for expansion in the heat, and without it, the increased length just literally pops the tile off. This is called tenting in the trade. How many expansion joints you need depends on the width and length of the installation.

Expansion joints can be done several ways: leave a grout joint open and fill with an elastomeric material designed for it (you can get that is some colors, but not all - it's often a urethane material), or you can tile in an engineered expansion joint (www.schluter.com makes them along with other manufacturers). In your case, the easiest would probably just be to use a silicon caulk. Being in Panama, you are unlikely to have to deal with freeze/thaw cycles, so moisture penetrating and freezing isn't an issue. If you are worried about water penetrating and dripping onto your downstairs neighbor's deck, you could get more complex and put in some waterproofing, but it's probably overkill since nobody is going to do this for your benefit above you.