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Old 04-26-2006, 07:47 AM   #1
Michael503
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Bathroom remodel, redgard arangement

Hi all, as you might have guessed, I have questions.
I have been browsing this very useful forum for about a month now and have gleened a lot of good information from it, but not quite everything I need.
First, I would like to post some history.
I am remodeling a bathroom due to a improper tile job by a previous setter, the only vapor barrier used appears to have been black craft paper
(they only impregnated enough tar to color the paper), and that was not used consistently as there were missing sections.
The construction was a tub/shower with mud walls and floor, half height in the rest of the room and a tiled vanity top. The tile and mud were well done, and the only bright spot here for me is that if they had used a vapor barrier, I would still have a pastel pink bathroom.



As you might have guessed, I've become obsessed with water control.

SWMBO and I have decided to construct a built in shower and eliminate the tub, I have elected to use durock with a vapor barrier behind for the shower walls
and a double layer bed. The curb will be 6" high and 4" wide when completed. The main floor is 2 layers of ply sub floor and will get 1 layer of 1/2" durock.
The floor durock will get versibond thin set between it and the sub floor.
(the sub floor height was determined by the height of the cast iron toilet flange, the original mud and tile floor was 2" thick, not counting the sub floor.)
A tile baseboard is also planned and durock will be used behind those tiles as well. I plan to tape and thin set all joints, including tile to wall and then apply
redgard to the durock floor before tiling.

It occurs to me that the weak point in this system is the joint between the bathroom floor and the curb. what I have in mind is this...


1. frame everything
2. build a proper mud preslope to the drain
3. install the durock to the bathroom floor and walls (3" high)
4. install a piece of durock to the outer curb face, full height
5. tape and mud all joints, forming a shallow pan. allow to cure
6. apply redgard to the durock curb face and a small section of floor in front of the curb (to avoid walking on the painted surface as work continues)

7. install the pvc membrane, lay it over the outside of the curb overlapping the redgard. see image..



8. install folded metal mesh to the curb using durock screws vs staples

9. install the shower walls with vapor barrier, tape and thinset

10. install the packed mud bed, and mud the curb.

11. etc, etc

at some point in time before tiling the floor, I will redgard the rest of the floor's durock.

the idea is to seal the seam where the curb intersects the floor so that any water that spills over the curb has no place to go but into the air, or a mop

thoughts?, constructive criticism? alternatives?

Thanks!!!

Last edited by Michael503; 04-26-2006 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 04-26-2006, 09:25 AM   #2
bbcamp
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Welcome, Michael!

It's too bad about your pretty-in-pink bathroom. I'm sure you hate to see it go!

Your plan sounds OK. However, I can suggest a plan the will be much easier and completely waterproof: Kerdi shower, Ditra floor, and Kerdi band between the curb and floor and walls and floor. Not a square inch of backerboard, only one mud bed. Whaddaya think?
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Old 04-26-2006, 06:06 PM   #3
Michael503
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Talking

Thanks for the suggestion!

I did look at the Kerdi stuff, I looked at it first thing, and was unfortunately forced to dismiss it after about a week for a few reasons.
First, I think it's expensive and way overpriced. I estimated that it would add about 350 - 400 bucks to the cost of doing my shower , not counting the floor.
I also didn"t trust a plastic membrane not to tear that was rigidly attached to a fracturable substrate (one crack and I'm screwed).
It's not available locally except by special order - if I ran out, or botched a piece, I'd have to wait another week or so to get more.
The other reason was the difficulty in applying it, somewhat akin to wallpapering. I'm pretty good at a lot of things, but wallpapering ain't one of them. (I suck at it)
I really liked the idea of using it, but the cons outweighed the pros


Last edited by Michael503; 04-26-2006 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 04-26-2006, 06:46 PM   #4
John Bridge
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I think you've got a good plan there, Michael.

I would really like to see a sheet type membrane in that critical area outside the curb where curb hits floor. Sounds like you'll be depending on that. You'll have to find some fiberglass mesh to use with the RedGard at that turn. Or maybe you can find a piece of Nobleseal or Dalseal where you are. That would work well for the bath floor, also.
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Old 04-26-2006, 06:50 PM   #5
Michael503
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Me too.. I'm gonna hafta order the 6" glass tape. Home Despot and Lowes don't have it...blank stares and "try this or that department". maybe a tile store will carry it.

Last edited by Michael503; 04-26-2006 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 04-30-2006, 07:09 AM   #6
Michael503
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I found a fiberglass mesh locally, it occured to me that fiberglass window screen comes in wide roles
I don't know that i would trust it's small fibers in a thinset aplication, but to reenforce redgard... I think it'll work.
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Old 04-30-2006, 07:50 AM   #7
John Bridge
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I don't know, Michael. You could ask Custom Building products, maker of RedGard

http://www.custombuildingproducts.com
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Old 05-07-2006, 03:54 PM   #8
Michael503
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update on project

I thought I would post some images of progress to date...



2 layers of subfloor outside the shower. and the 2 x 6 curb core secured to the floor with screws through pocket holes. note the staining of the sheathing around the studs - wimpy vapor barrier.

----------------



Anyone who thinks a vapor barrier isn't needed should see this. This section of damaged stud is about 18" tall. The damage goes 1.5" into the stud. There was no vapor barrier here, it started 18" off of the floor and continued up to the 4' mark.. I guess they ran out.

---------------



Here the plumbing stubs can be seen as well as the temporary plywood drain protector. I installed the drain while only part of the subfloor was in place and did NOT want it damaged. This section of the house is a real bitch to get to via crawlspace.
You can also see the notches routed out of the blocking to clear the liner folds.

---------------



Here the preslope has been built using 1" thick guide strips at the edge. A 5:1 mixture was used. Plumbing and more wall blocking have been installed too.

---------------



another view of the preslope.

--------------



Here the floor has received it's Durock layer, screwed with thinset to the subfloor, taped and mudded. There are also 2.5" high pieces of Durock around the perimiter of the room (a 3" high tile baseboard will be used) and a Durock facing was added to the curb. Redgard was applied to the curb-floor joint using fiberglass window screen as a reenforcing fabric. The roofing felt on the left wall is there as a spacer for the liner (15 lb felt is about the same thickness as 40 mil pvc liner). you can also see strips of liner stapled to the studs on the far wall as a spacer.
Note the lack of a vapor barrier on the insulation.

---------------



Liner in place with 6 mil poly vapor barrier

---------------



Tileboard installed, tape and thinset all joints, attach metal mesh and pound in a 1.5" mud bed.

----------------



and the curb is done!

I would like to add that I have never worked with cement/mortar before and once I got over my fear of screwing up, I found it to be not to much of a problem. The worst part was that after packing the beds with a float, my right hand became so weak I couldn't hold onto my can of beer

I also want to add that almost everthing I needed to know about this project, I found through this forum. A BIG Thanks!!

It will be a few weeks before we begin tiling, I'll post more images then

Thanks all!

Last edited by Michael503; 05-07-2006 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 05-09-2006, 01:32 PM   #9
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nice pics michael! Did you end up using the window screen for your fiberglass reinforcement?
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Old 05-09-2006, 02:53 PM   #10
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Looks great! Keep the pictures coming.
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Old 05-09-2006, 06:39 PM   #11
Michael503
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yup, the screen seems to bond well Mosquito

I'm sanding and mudding wall board now, and have tile on order, should start tiling in about 2 weeks
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Old 05-22-2006, 06:05 PM   #12
Michael503
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and so it begins...


My back is KIlling me!!!

Last edited by Michael503; 05-22-2006 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 05-22-2006, 08:37 PM   #13
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Fantastic documentation. This could be part of the liberry!
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Old 06-05-2006, 08:09 AM   #14
Michael503
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update on project

thought I'd post some more links...


progress as of last night.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It took me about 6 hours to set this... I laid a single row down the middle and let it set overnight, I used 2 sticks about 2.5 ft long and 3/8" thick as guides for my float to set all the tiles at the same height and then came back the next morning and set the rest using 1 stick and the previously laid row as a reference, just pressed em in with a float.
My knees are killing me now too...
I'd starve if I had to do this for a living

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




this is one of the 2 leftover tiles that I cut for the floor, SWMBO had her heart set on a tile color that was in stock at lowes (and cheap) and I couldn't really talk her out of it. they do not make this tile in anything smaller than a 6 x 6. and there were NO complimentary tiles for this scheme except tumbled stone noce (when sealed) which I did not want for a shower floor for maintenance reasons. soooooooooooooooooo. I spent not a small amount of time with a wet saw, a diamond sharpening paddle, and a random orbit sander to soften the edges. I walked on it this morning and it feels pretty good under bare feet.

There are 311 of them in the floor layout

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


A detailed view of the faucet layout.. Y'know, after dicking around with a tile drill and a coping saw, I decided, "what the hell, I'll just go buy that $18, 1 3/8 tile cutting hole saw they sell at lowes and home depot and save myself the effort" ...WRONG! After spending about an hour with this thing.. dry, wet, damp, slow, fast, pilot hole, both sides... I had failed to cut 1 single f**king hole. This is just a ceramic tile, and I made a dent in it about 3/32 of an inch deep. I returned it for the worthless P.O.S. that it is. Don't waste your time with this tool!!!
I ended up using a small diamond wheel and a dremel tool in a pan of water (you can get 5 of them with an arbor at harbor freight for $10.)
The holes are rough, but they will be covered so no big deal.

I'm off to cut more tile (sigh) post more next week...

Last edited by Michael503; 06-05-2006 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 06-05-2006, 08:55 AM   #15
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Looking really nice so far Michael !
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