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Unread 04-12-2014, 07:39 PM   #1
Gschaub
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Kerdi on a curved joint

I am in the process of remodeling my master bath with a new shower. I have included a tiled barrel ceiling in the design. I'm getting ready to waterproof with Kerdi and realized that I need Kerdi Band along the curved joint between the ceiling and wall.

This leads to the question: How can I apply the Kerdi across the joint without the Kerdi pleating/puckering on the wall side of the barrel? I think of wrapping a gift with one curved side and not being able to get the opposite side perfectly flat without pleating the fold. Of course, pleats aren't a big problem in gift wrapping because I don't expect to put tile over it!

This is one of the few topics I haven't been able to work through with a simple google search. Has anyone here dealt with this previously?

Thanks...Greg
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Unread 04-12-2014, 10:23 PM   #2
jadnashua
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Call Schluter's tech support line on Monday and see what they may come up with.

If I was going to do it, I think I'd probably do the barrel vault with their Kerdiboard, and maybe just use some Kerdifix to attach a piece on the edge up to the ceiling. But, assuming it's already up...no need to tear things out. Is this a steam shower? If it is, that complicates things.

Got a picture of the ceiling and where it sits relative to the whole shower?
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Unread 04-12-2014, 11:29 PM   #3
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Welcome, Greg.

Unless this is to be a steam shower, I'd be inclined to eliminate the Kerdi from the ceiling all together. That's not generally considered part of the wet area of a standard residential shower.

But if you insist, you can simply make cuts in the ceiling material like piano keys and let those tabs overlap, then cover that section with your wall Kerdi. A fella can get a pretty close approximation of the advertised corner folds for that product.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-13-2014, 07:01 AM   #4
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Picture and details

Thanks all for the info. I think a few more details are in order based on the replies. First, while not technically a steamer, I am building to steam specs so I can add steam later without tearing the whole thing out. I'm also so spooked by the bad places in which water has turned up, I am going out of my way (some might say obsessed, but a wife would never say that, right?) to make certain it never leaves its proper domain (at least from the bathroom perspective) again. That's why the Kerdi (not to mention the tile) on the ceiling.

Next, the attached photo shows the current state. I have framing, insulation, water supply for rainshower, and lighting in the ceiling. I also have several sheets of Permabase Flex board - I'm currently cutting out for penetrations. I looked at flex Kerdi Board, but thought it more expensive without benefit vs. Kerdi on my Permabase. I assume that I could still create the Kerdifix movement joint that Jim described based on this.

That said, would the Kerdi solution CX described be more reliable? CX, I'm also trying to envision how your "Kerdi wedgie" of a movement joint would fit with the solution you propose. I think you're just saying to cut the Kerdi where it would crease and then overlap (I assume creating a thinset sandwich) on the wall. Do I have this right?

Regards...Greg
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Unread 04-13-2014, 07:23 AM   #5
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That's a much bigger radius than I was envisioning, Greg, but I still don't think you're gonna have much luck doing a wedgie there for a movement accommodation joint with the regular Kerdi or KerdiBand. Schluter does make a KerdiFlex product that may or may not work there. I've never used the product and don't really know just how flexible it might be.

The only other option I could suggest is that you move your movement accommodation joint to a straight line across the bottom of your vault on those end walls. There you could make a wedgie with good results.

You do understand that Kerdi does not meet the current requirement for a continuous use steam shower, right? I'd personally be quite happy to use Kerdi in any residential steam shower, but I don't know who's requirements you're trying to meet.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-13-2014, 03:23 PM   #6
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The industry recently moved the perm rating for commercial showers from <1 to <0.5. Kerdi meets the residential spec, which is still <1. KerdiDS meets the spec for a continuous use shower.

Industry wants a 2"/foot slope on the steam room ceiling. If you want to avoid caulk in those radiused seams, Schluter will notch the leg portion of a profile for you at a cost so that it will bend smoothly. You can do it yourself, but would be unlikely to make your cutouts as consistent, and it may or may not bend as smoothly.

Schluter might allow Kerdifix at that wall/ceiling seam, but I think I'd fold the band in half, then cut slits from the edge to near to that fold line, then install the band with the continuous side on the ceiling, and then carefully overlap the band's flaps (created by the cuts) on the wall. THen, maybe a bead of Kerdifix at the seam. If you then used one of the notched expansion joints, it has a little relief on the back side and most have a pocket to hold the edge of the tile and hide the cut (which would make the wall tile cutting much less exacting, as well). If you choose the profile color and a similar grout, they can disappear. I'd ask Schluter which one might work best in this situation.
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Unread 04-13-2014, 04:09 PM   #7
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Hi All,

I was aware of the new requirements which require Kerdi DS in continuous use steamers, but I didn't think that would apply to a residential application. Is my assumption correct? The radius on the ceiling drops 6" from the center and the shower is 4.5'. Therefore I have better than 3" per foot - designed with the sloped ceiling requirement in mind.

Jim, by profile, are you referring to the Dilex product? That is what I was planning to use but I haven't used it previously and therefore didn't know how to bend it. Sounds like the tip here is to have Schluter do it for me. True?

So based on the info so far, it sound like the order of operation is to install my backer leaving the customary 3/4" gap at all perimeters, then install Kerdi on flats, give it a wedgie with Kerdi Band w/ backer rod on the 2 flat joints, fill the curved joint with thinset and Kerdi Band with nip/tuck along the wall side, then install Dilex which has been bent appropriately where I have the radius joints.

Does this sound correct? Do I have too much overkill? I tend to be a belt and suspenders type of guy - if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. Since this is all DIY, I don't have to worry about putting food on the table this way. A good thing - stuff is always done well but never on schedule!
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Unread 04-13-2014, 04:22 PM   #8
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IMHO, 3/4" is too much of a gap in the corners! I haven't reviewed the TCNA guidelines on this, but would be surprised if it was that large on a steam shower - typically, it's more like 1/4" or so. If I get a chance, I'll look.

Dilex comes in a bunch of different configurations. But, yes, that is what I was thinking. Depending on the one you choose, it may bend without cutting or notching. Having them do it in say one of their SS versions would lead to a much smoother curve possibility. It is still shipped to you flat and straight...the cutting of notches is an option at extra cost. I think I'd probably only have them do it on a metal piece because the cost of getting it wrong is much higher.
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Unread 04-13-2014, 05:21 PM   #9
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Thanks Jim. On the gaps, you're right - was thinking 1/4 but wrote 3/4.
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Unread 04-17-2014, 07:26 AM   #10
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Schulter reply

All,

I just spoke with the Schluter tech rep. For the joints where wall meets ceiling, they said their profiles cannot be used. Recommendation is tho bring Dilex up the four wall corners and transition to caulk for the wall/ceiling joints. Additionally, along the curved wall ceiling joint, they said that Kerdi Bank is pliable enough to form itself to the curve without puckering. We'll see about that one.

Cx, they she didn't know about your Kerdi wedgie, but did say not to pack the gaps with thinset. I still like the wedgie idea - for the wall, not for me!

I'm ordering supplies today and there is a bit of lead time. Please let me know if there are other pearls of wisdom. I'll let you know how it turns out.
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Unread 04-17-2014, 07:33 AM   #11
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I've tried to train them, Greg, but they're a stubborn lot.
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Unread 04-17-2014, 11:11 AM   #12
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Greg, you can look at my build to see examples of cutting darts to go around corners - http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...d.php?t=108307

I think you are way over-thinking this though. This looks like a huge shower, and your joint is in the ceiling - there is very little to drive water through there anyway.

IMO, simply kerdi the wall and ceiling normally, kerdiband the joint with cuts to accommodate - if you want extra protection run a bead of kerdifix down the corner to cover the pinholes that might exist where the darts and two edges of kerdi join (like any corner "vortex").

You talked about a movement joint, but I think you are just referring to the normal corner change of plane where it is suggested to use caulk - right ? If so, just caulk it like the rest of your corners (or grout it like many reprobates here do.)
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Unread 04-18-2014, 07:13 AM   #13
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Confessions of an overthinker

Hi Kevin,

Truth be told, this isn't the first time I've been accused of overthinking something. But I followed your link and wow, what a project - it was incredible. I have to believe that there may be some "takes one to know one" going on with the overthinking!

Seriously though, your Kerdi seat looks almost exactly like my challenge except you're on the outside of the curve and I'm on the inside. Your concept is along the lines of what I was thinking; it's helpful though to have seen your picture; I had an abstract idea of what it would look like and it makes me much more comfortable to see a concrete example.

Since I'm a belt and suspenders guy too, I'll take your Kerdifix suggestion - I was thinking along those lines as well.

Finally, you're correct in that the movement joints (in this case) are simply the normal change of plane. I will caulk the ceiling based on Schluter's recommendation. I'm using Dilex everywhere else and was trying to figure out how to use the Dilex for the curves too - evidently, it cannot be done. My other concern with those joints was with the space under the tile and caulk. I'm going to give it CX's wedgie where I can, but I don't believe it's possible along the curved ceiling joints.
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Unread 06-14-2014, 05:52 AM   #14
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Getting back at it

It's been awhile since I've posted a project update. There are a couple of reasons: First, I had to finish out the rest of the bathroom except for the shower to get the toilet working again. Having the additional toilet is more important to my family than the shower. Go figure. Second, I'm just flat out slow at this stuff.

At this point, the bathroom (minus shower) is complete except for part of the grout and some touch up. The shower is framed, boarded, joints thinset, and Kerdi almost done - still need to do most Kerdiband and corners. I'll post some pictures of current progress. I also have a couple of tile questions which I'll put in the next entry.
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Unread 06-14-2014, 06:08 AM   #15
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Trouble with pics

It seems the image files don't want to post from my phone, so I'll have to wait on that until I upload to the computer and try again. Bottom line, the project is progressing well, if slowly.
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