sunken tiled showers leak

[ceramictec]

right up to the wall and channel under the wall stud.

[deluca5]

Hi Brian and Dan,

More confusion. We were present when the plumber jackhammered the hole in the LR slab. We pulled out about 7 gallons of concrete, gravel, and soil. I remember distinctly that everything was dry. The plumbers even commented about how dry the material was. That was in February 2008, but the jackhammer punctured the visquine or whatever you call that barrier---about a 6 inch diameter hole---and now the soil is damp. I can't tell if the water passed from the shower or up from the ground. No water, just moist sandy soil.
Any recommendations?

P.S. I saw your website..you do beautiful work!

[ceramictec]

hi Jessica,

can you add a permenant name in the signature line for the members that might help on this thread ?

if there was moisture before you jack hammered and broe the plastic I'm sure it was the same moisture. it's hard to tell you whats going on with out being there. these things are big problems to locate as you have found out.

[deluca5]

Brian,
I opened your hot link to edit my signature but it asked for a website...I have no website...do you want me to make my email address public..I thought it was public...I am not sure what you are asking me to do...

Back to the problem---the soil was dry when we jackhammered the hole in January and broke the barrier, but the soil is now very moist...Nearly 18 months ago, I removed 2 squares of LR drywall to get a look at pipes and the other side of the shower wall..NO sign of moisture there...I noticed that the most badly damaged LR floor was near a pipe that ran up through the slab, up through the floor joist to the shower valve (I suspected a leaky valve, but this turned out to be disproved by 2 plumbers and the leak expert)...THERE WAS A HOLE IN THE CONCRETE about 2 in. in diameter where the pipe ran through...I took a long vinyl tube and stuck it down the hole into the soil..the soil on the tube and in the tube WAS DAMP...but the soil the plumbers extracted from the jackhammered hole in the LR was dry...
Jessica

[scuttlebuttrp]

Brian's asking you to go to the blue bar at the top and click on "User CP". In there you can type in your signature so that it appears in all your posts so that we know what to call you and you don't have to worry about doing it over and over.

Let's pretend you have no leaks in your plumbing. You could have but for now..........., you don't.

Most sunken showers around here have no liner at all. The concrete guy forms up where the shower is and they pour. I've seen them leave the actual form boards and also the stakes in the slab sometimes because now there's concrete around them and the boards are too cheap to care about. So now you have not only a hole in your vapor barrier but wood that can wick water too. This is one possibility.
The next cute thing they do is leave a hole around the base of the drain anywhere from 4"-12". The theory is since you don't have a liner, any water can just go straight into the ground because there's a hole in the vapor barrier there also. But of course water can also travel through the concrete or on top of the vapor barrier to adjoing rooms where you have hardwood or something.
The last idea is; we live in Jax. We have an extremely high water table. You don't say what part of town your in but the moisture that appeared in the hole in your living room could be groundwater. Arlington is about the highest neighborhood here, but where I live up on the extreme northside, I haven't been able to mow my grass for two months because my lawn is so saturated.
You probably have a combo of all these things. The fact that your pipe cleaner smelled funky when you put it in the joint tells me something's growing there because there's water.
We can't guarentee that rebuilding your shower will fix the problem. After all you'll still have holes in your vapor barrier and your yard may not slope properly or your house could sit too low like my land does. But if built correctly your showers will be good.
And yes this can be a DIY project if you feel handy; we'll gladly help walk you through it. Just ask all your questions on this thread though so everyone can follow along.
Plus; maybe someone around here can tell us how to patch a vapor barrier.

[deluca5]

Thanks Royce,
I have been collecting and analyzing every bit of info from any source that would talk to me over the last 18 months. All the while I have been hoping against hope that the problem would go away. You confirmed from your experience my worst nightmares. The problem with wood left in the ground wicking up water sounds like an unfixable one unless we get lucky enough to be attacked by termites. Only a nutcase prays for termite infestation. The only group of people I have not talked to or hired are soil engineers and that is because I supposed the cost would be too high. And humans tunneling under the house to look for wood sounds like a very expensive proposition.

I live in Eagle Harbor, Clay County, not in a flood plain, and according to my insurance company, elevated 9 ft (above what, I am not sure)...I guess rain or groundwater can also channel under a home (the route of least resistance), but the LR walls in question are internal. One thing that supports your point about wood framing left in the ground is this: the high moisture reading on the concrete in the LR outlines perfectly 2 sides of the shower forming a right angle and is limited to 1 or 2 inches of the concrete out from the wall into the LR. THere is zero moisture reading 4 inches from these walls and nowhere else in the LR..

This is not a tiling issue but I have been wondering---and you fellas have been so nice I hate to ask it here---But, since replacing the showers will not guarantee the moisture will disappear...and if wood framing is in the ground and cannot be removed...and since the moisture in the concrete is restricted to a couple of inches along the LR wall (the exact outline of the shower which kinda points to the framing-wood idea.).. maybe I could just put down a vapor barrier atop the concrete in the LR or seal the concrete with some substance, replace some of the hardwood and wait and see what happens...Guess I better post this question on a flooring website, huh?

Jessica

[deluca5]

Hi Royce,
I can see from your Profile and from your concise, well-written reply that they were still teaching grammar in the Cleveland schools in the 1980's. I hail from your rival city, Pittsburgh. I located a supplier of Black Visqueen Tape (I just learned how to spell Visqueen!). Funny thing though: it says "UV and weather resistant." Does Visqueen ever see the light of day??? Hope it is water repellent because water resistant ain't gonna be good enough. I am going to patch the Visqueen in jackhammered hole but that has nothing to do with resolving my original problem...

http://www.vanguardproductsinc.com/V...alog_small.pdf
Page 8

Photo files too big to attach...

[deluca5]

Hi all,

I compressed the photos...pics taken before I removed the flooring and after.. also a photo inside the wall. You might be able to tell what kind of wallboard was used, but you can see no water damage to wallboard or floor joist. After I removed the very damaged LR flooring, I scrubbed the concrete with Clorox so the moisture you see is not water...only moisture appears within one inch from the LR wall...you can see in the one photo that the flooring was pushed up against the wallboard...no room to breathe..increases the chances of wicking too...

Just want to say thanks again in advance..

[java]

How about a picture of the showers. That would help.

I think you have leaking showers at this point. Water does funny things, goes funny places.

What do you think of when you hear hoofs? Horses. Well your looking for zebras. Think horses not zebras. What I mean is, you are over looking the obvious.

The moisture damaged areas are adjacent to the showers. No other moisture problems around the house?

You have leaky showers.

[deluca5]

Hi Jason,

I like your equine version of Occam's razor...the old Latin law of parsimony. Simple solutions can be best, however, in this case, 2 plumbers and one highly recommended leak expert assure us our showers are not leaking. (Although the leak expert did say the moisture may have been the result of an old leak prior to our moving in). Two tile contractors who have visited the house quoted a cost of many thousands to replace each shower, and will not guarantee us they can cure the problem by gutting and replacing the showers.

And keep in mind, this sunken shower has not been used in over 18 months and the supply line was cut over 8 mos. ago, and we still get a high moisture reading on the LR concrete about an inch or two out from the shared wall. (Without the wood to wick the moisture laterally, the moisture seems to stay close to the shared wall outlining 2 sides of the shower.) This seems to indicate that there is either a constant source of moisture(from where???) OR that a large amount of water has collected/pooled in a place where it cannot drain into the soil or evaporate into the air and is somehow being wicked up in a very specific pattern.

Also, the shower has four sides and a third side which shares a wall with a carpeted closet shows NO signs of moisture on the concrete floor, or carpet tack strip, or the carpet.

I will happily attach photos of shower. The tiles are glazed and the grout lines are very small, no spaces, no holes, no cracked tiles, etc.

The law of parsimony, or "when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zerbras" (unless you are on the African savannah!!) is a philosophical construct that dates back to the late Middle Ages and a Catholic monk named William of Ockham. As you know, they didn't have plumbing in the Middle Ages and some of those monks sat around arguing about the number of angels that could fit on the head of a pin. The simplest explanation for mental illness in those days was possession by the devil. Four elements, instead of 117, were the simplest explanation for matter.

On this modern, non-flat Earth, I prefer Royce's and Brian's approach: consider several possible hypotheses, collect evidence to support or reject each, and then decide on a course of action. Simple solutions do not demand "jumping to conclusions." Probablility may well be on your side, Jason, but it is very expensive to test your hypothesis first, and even more expensive to find it failing to cure the problem.

[deluca5]

more photos of shower and LR concrete/floor....no more sorry but I can get carried away

We really have to try and resolve this problem..

Thanks

[Dave Taylor]

five pics..... the smallest has me wondering......

what am I looking at here, what is the orientation...

where was the pic taken from?

Thanks

[sdk]

Couple of thoughts as I read through your thread. Was the floor around the second shower dry until you started using it? This could be your acid test. If the shower was built incorrectly it's likely both were built the same way.

Second, speaking from experience, water will seek and pool in a low spot, even if that low spot is in the middle of the house. I, too, am on a slab and during my shower remodel we had to remove some water lines that ended up being in the middle of the new shower. After breaking into the slab and repairing the lines the plumber left the hole open at my request. A few days later, after a heavy rain, the hole, which contained the main incoming line, was full of water. Sure I had a leak I called the plumber, but by the next day when he got there the water was gone. The soil was still wet, but no standing water. Plumber insisted the water was from the rain, I insisted it wasn’t as the hole was 15’ from the nearest exterior wall. Certain I had a leak I left the hole open for the next few months. Result: rain= water in hole, no rain= hole dried out. The plumber’s explanation was that the rain/ground water was following the main line in to this location. I don’t know how plausible that is, but I do know that in 3 months the only time I had water in that hole (and it was 2-3” of water) was after a heavy rain.

We are on a clay soil and that could be the difference between your damp soil and my standing water. The excavation could have created a low spot that explains the now damp soil where it was previously dry, especially given your frequent rain. Your description that the soil was damp around the 2” hole prior to excavation indicates that water has been in that area. Maybe due to the design of the house, ie the sunken shower. If the design is the inherent flaw and water is pooling in this area due to the lower soil level under the shower this, coupled with a breached vapor barrier, could explain why you are only seeing moisture around the shower perimeter.

You still have to determine where the water is coming from though. I would assume the leak detectors pressure tested your sewer lines, but if not I would definitely have them tested. If there is no plumbing leak then I would think the water is either coming from the shower or is ground water. You may be able to test this by flood testing your shower pan and seeing if there is any change to the moisture level of the soil in the area. If no change I would probably run the shower for an extended period of time and check for moisture just in case water was entering higher up the wall, at a bench or niche for example. If these tests are negative I would be inclined to start using the shower again while watching the moisture level of the soil. If you still have no change and are willing to wait it out you could watch the moisture content as you move from your rainy season into the dry season. Oh, and if the soil level in the hole is higher than the bottom of the sunken shower I would probably remove some more soil hoping to direct any water right to my hole. And remember to change only one variable at a time, but I think you know that already.

Good luck!

[java]

Jessica - I surely hope you don't think I was telling you to yank the showers. Not at this point anyways. And I'm not jumping to any conclusions for the sake of a simple solution. I'm not looking for a simple solution, I'm looking for the source of your water. I doubt the solution is gona be cheap or simple, no matter the cause.

In your first post you say that you started using another shower in the house and noticed water damage in a hall adjacent to that shower. Was this damage occurring before you started using the shower?

In the shower that you haven't used in 18 months, can you run some water in the shower for half an hour or so. Maybe dam up the entry and partially block the drain to get some slight flooding? Since it has had time to dry up somewhat, do you think you could tell if the moisture was escaping into the LR from the shower soak?

[deluca5]

Hi Dave,
I forgot to rotate a couple of the photos...reattached....the photo with the sink in the picture is the entry to the shower, enter and turn right to the far right corner which includes the shower head...the rest are of the floor and wall...Jason seemed to think he was going to see something wrong in the shower....the other photos are of the living room floor on the shared wall with the shower, AFTER i removed the flooring, baseboard and a chunk of wallboard...you can see the dark line on the concrete near the shared wall..I filled the jackhammered hole with garbage bags which probably looks weird...