Radiant Floor Heat

[WadeJ]

John,

Don't worry I'm not too fragile. And I also have no control of the marketing budget so don't worry about the money.

Wade

[dswallow]

Originally Posted by John Bridge

Doug,

I for one am happy you hang around. You've been a great help on many occassions. I just can't have you beating up on our reps. They're fragile, especially the ones who pay us money.

John, I've faced somewhat similar issues with sponsors or with companies I earn a commission from, and I certainly don't mean to beat up your reps, but it is disconcerting at times that a newbie here gets advice that's sometimes limited to just such paid sponsors. It's an inherent conflict of interest -- you want to do good by your visitors and at the same time you want to pay some bills and make such paid sponsorships beneficial to the company involved.

I think many people appreciate those companies willing to stand behind their products and provide easy access via forums like this for pre and post sales support, and even just providing general info. All other things being mostly equal, it's a great deciding factor in picking a vendor.

But there are alternative products that have different advantages and disadvantages, and ever since such paid sponsors have been added, it seems there's a bit more likelihood to not mention such alternatives anymore when talking about the class of products they represent, which once discovered by the person seeking advice, might color their perception about other advice given around here.

It's a blurry line, you know.

Wade, I'm very sorry if anything I have said (or said repeatedly) has in any way seemed offensive to you. I really don't mean to beat up on you (or anyone else) everytime radiant heating comes up, and I'll be more careful in the future not to approach discussions on the subject in a way that anyone might think that's my intent. I'm only trying to present suggestions when someone inquires about such things.

As some famous business always said in their ads, "an educated consumer is our best customer."

And I must also admit I do not always start off with the best attitude about sales reps -- I deal with many at my office, and too often, they are only sales people, who I end up educating about their products. Over the last 10 years I've grown so tired of it, I rarely want to talk to such people or be visited by such people. It's just a waste of my time, too often. There are occasional gems out there, but they're too often a dying breed. And it hasn't helped that at places like Home Depot I must now wear earplugs before shopping because I know first-hand so much of what their "experts" say is a bunch of baloney, and all I want to do there is shop, not get into handing out advice! Obviously there's some good ones out here, and I'm very appreciative they and you come here, too.

So, again, sorry for getting too hot under the collar about the topic. I'm a bit over-passionate about it because I do love the heated floor I installed quite a bit, and honestly it just wouldn't have happened at the price point your product is at, so I try to spread the radiant heating love, by pointing out how inexpensive it can be compared to the rest of the project. In the end, I'm sure it can only help everyone to have more people interested in radiant heating, even if they should choose a competitors product. Awareness about this stuff is pretty low, I've found.

[WadeJ]

Doug,

I'm all for you mentioning competitors' products, and I have no problem whatsoever with you defending or promoting them vigoroursly. If this board only talked about schluter, felker and WarmlyYours, and how "good they are" the entire board would be less effective and people eventually would go somewhere else.

Personally, I think my viewpoint on the various products out there is reasonably neutral. I won't miss an opportunity to point out an advantage of our product, but I'm always happy to compliment another product or company. But at the same time I'm not going to sit on my hands when my product and company's policies are dismissed. I contribute to this site, not to drive sales, that's not my job, but to answer the questions that are posted about electric floor heating. Sometimes I answer the the flooring part of the questions incorrectly - and you guys rightly jump on me - but my experience in electric floor heating hasn't just been limited to one product, but to many. And I talk to people repeatedly about what went wrong with various other products (or our own) and other companies. I personally think this gives me an interesting perspective on the products out there and also the industry.

You're right Doug the exposure to this product is tiny compared to what it is in Europe or even China and Korea. The growth of the industry is huge and there will be plenty for everyone.

Keep up the posts Doug, we'd be poorer if you stopped.

Wade

[Floor Tiler]

Maybe I was not well informed about my choice to use the Warmly Yours product in my bathroom and maybe I over paid, but it was sure easy to send in a plan of my bathroom and have a design sent back, order the materials from their proposal and have the product install perfectly. No hassle with measuring and calculating. And, I was able to call customer service on a Saturday night with questions. That gave me more time to spend with my family. I was not able to find that type of service from another company.

Jeff

[peterd]

Jeff,

Look at having you walls insulated with expanding foam insulation. In a 2x4 wall you will be able to get about R-20. It also seals every nook and cranny real nice. It's about 1 1/2 times more expensive than batt insulation but I believe it worth it.

Originally Posted by Floor Tiler

5. Kitchen will be gutted and re-insulated, but give the wall construction, insulation will be limited to the 2x4 wall depth.

[cx]

But there are alternative products that have different advantages and disadvantages, and ever since such paid sponsors have been added, it seems there's a bit more likelihood to not mention such alternatives anymore when talking about the class of products they represent, which once discovered by the person seeking advice, might color their perception about other advice given around here.
It's a blurry line, you know.

Doug:

Our paid advertisers purchase advertising space on the site. Period. They do not purchase a sales staff and are not promised any cheerleading. They are not told that the moderators will support only their product. They are not told the moderators will not support a competing product. They are invited to come on, as Wade does, to support their product and offer advice about its care and feeding. They are, perhaps, implicitly promised that the people they encounter here will be civil in their tone and thoughtful in their comments, just because that's the way the site is run.

Your blurry line point is well taken. You may note that I, for one, do not sing the praises of Warmly, nor of any other heating product. I simply don't know anything about the various products or systems. I do speak well of Schluter's Ditra and Kerdi, but only because I've read a lot about them and have been assured by people I trust who do use them that they are good and useful products. I don't hesitate to opine that Noble has products for similar applications and some for applications that Schluter doesn't. Again, I try to stay on this side of your blurry line, for the reasons you cite. I think you'll find the same to be true for the most part of all the other moderators here. Some have strong allegiances to some products that are in direct competition with those of our paid advertisers and corporate sponsors; they feel free to state those preferences and frequently do so. I hope none of that will ever change here. You are assured that no moderator or frequent contributor will ever be told not to be clear and firm about his views on any product or service so long as I'm a member of the board. I've said that before and my membership has thus far not been terminated. I'm actually quite confident that John Bridge shares that view.

I, too, would prefer that the real technical discussions and serious arguments such as this take place in the Professional's Hangout, though. That forum is still open to the public, but we play a little rougher there and it does not detract from the intended direction of a thread of one of our DIY clients, such as this one has. Those clients are more than welcome to come to the Hangout if they choose to follow the discussion.

As concerns beating up the reps, I'm not in favor of that at any time. As concerns their being fragile, all I can say is ol' JB beat up on Eric (e3) pretty substantially when he first arrived and he (Eric) doesn't appear to be broke yet.

As noted, your participation here is much appreciated. The regulars here are aware of your level of experience, attention to detail, and quality of workmanship. And you have a hellofa lot more experience in the area of radiant floor heating systems than at least a couple of our moderators. Please continue as you have in past.

Wade:

You seem to keep a cool head and stay mostly to the point. I think you're showing the flag well and should continue your participation as much as possible. We ain't gonna promise you an easy road, though, as you can see.

My opinion; worth price charged.

PS: I'm one of those mentioned who ain't never once even touched a piece of radiant heating material of any kind. I speak only a little hydronic, mostly because we'd like to be able to cool with it.