Rob's master bath project

[circusfreak]

Hey folks,
I'd like to start a thread here to get some guidance and advice on details along the way as I do my bathroom/shower project. I will do my best to try to find answers in other threads, but if not forgive the repeats of old questions. FWIW, I downloaded John's Kerdi shower eBook and read it through, and saw a few things that were glossed over, so I also just ordered his "Tile Your World" book which should be here in a couple days. That will hopefully fill in some of the voids.

Background on my project:
Our house is about 15 years old, and we've been wanting to rip out the bathroom for a couple years now. It has (I should say "had" as of last weekend) linoleum, 6x6 white porcelain tiles, and a stained up fiberglass shower pan. Standard little bathroom, about 5 x 10 or so.

I have so far ripped the whole thing down to studs and will be starting from scratch in there.

The plan :
- Frame in a small doorway opening to enclose the shower area. Similar to the doorway in Wendy's bathroom thread. BTW, Wendy, if you read this, your final pictures were very inspirational. Fine work!!
- Tile the whole shower stall, including the ceiling. We'll add some niches for bottles, and some accent tilework around the fixtures.
- The shower is going to be a mudbed floor and Kerdi all around with the Kerdi-drain. The shower stall is about 33 x 47.
- The rest of the bathroom is going to be tiled from floor to ceiling, with sheetrock only on the main bathroom ceiling.
- I will build a new vanity (with vessel sink) and linen cabinet.

Small bathroom, but still adds up to a big project with all the details!

Where I am at in the DIY tile world:
- My first tile job was the whole first floor of my house (400 sq. ft or so) in 16x16 porcelain tiles. I also laid in a nice accent tile "mat" under the kitchen table area. I have to give many thanks to the info on this forum for it's success. It has been 5 years or so and it is solid. I used DITRA for that floor and was sold on Schluter products!
- I also did a 2nd bathroom, just the floor, no shower. It was on concrete and turned out great.
- Also tiled a friend's fireplace mantle. Turned out well, even though I was nervous of my first "vertical" project.


So anyways, I am ready to dive in, learn what I can, ask questions, and get this thing done as soon as possible so I don't have to share a bathroom with the kids for too long

Thanks in advance for the friendly assistance!
Rob

[circusfreak]

So for a first round of simple questions:

1. It really is OK to tile walls right on top of drywall? Is it just as stable an install as backerboard?
2. Install tile right onto fresh drywall? Do you have to mud and tape the seams?
3. What is a good way to mate the wall tiles to the ceiling? An accent or "crown" tile row? Or do you have other suggestions?

Thanks!
Rob

[circusfreak]

Here are a few pictures of where I am starting from:
Before and after initial demo (shower pan and lino still need to come out) :










Looks like a nice blank canvas to me!

[WendyHMN]

Like Bob said, except that you don't tape or mud in your shower where you're going to put kerdi. The kerdi will serve the same purpose.

I did the simple caulked seam at the top of my tile walls. And all the top tiles were cut to fit.

Your starting bath looks very like mine, except for the linen closet location. Do you have a sketch of what you're trying to do? Also, I don't see where you say what your current subfloor is. You knew someone had to ask, right?

[circusfreak]

Bob -
That is good to hear that drywall is adequate for wall tiling! I was asssuming Kerdi-covered drywall in the shower, but I figured without Kerdi I would have to use a backerboard for the other walls. That will make things a lot easier.

I am kind of surprised that you would mud and tape the seams as if you were painting them. The reason is that in my garage the original builders did not paint, but left the seams just taped and mudded but the drywall bare. After a few years, the tape and attached mud sometimes just cracks and falls off the walls, so it would seem that having that layer in between the thinset and drywall would actually somewhat decouple it? You know what I mean? That was just my original thinking, but if you guys say mud and tape, that's what I am here for!

I'll probably leave the top row as simple tiles to keep it from looking busy as you guys suggested.

Wendy -
Yep, I know not to mud and tape in the Kerdi shower, after reading John's excellent Kerdi book.

I don't have a drawing of it, as I am not changing the layout of anything, save for framing the small stub-wall doorframe. Everything else is in the same exact spot, except that I knocked out that 45 degree cabinet framing, so the room is a simple rectangle now. Shower on the end, toilet next to it, then small vessel vanity, then slim tall linen cabinet.

The last thing I have to rip out is the fiberglass pan and linoleum, so I will inspect the subfloor at that time. I assume it is similar to the attached bedroom, which was just 3/4" OSB. I'll let you know when I find out. (demo has been derailed due to the flu).

Thanks again for jumping in already! Once I get rolling, I am glad to have you folks to "lean" on.

[circusfreak]

Gotcha Bob! Thanks for the explanation. Also good to know that if there is ever a fire in my house, I will head right to the basement and cover each family member with a coat of spare drywall compound before we run through the flames

[circusfreak]

Hi folks,
Wow, 2 weeks since demolition and I haven't had any spare cycles to work on this thing. I'm getting ready to dive in now, so a couple quick questions for now:

1. First off, my wife would very much like to get rid of the floor heating grate that we have now. We keep it closed a lot of the time and it does nothing but collect junk, dirt and dust inside. So I'd like to elbow it earlier up into the adjoining wall and just vent it out the wall instead. Any reason NOT to do it this way, or any other suggestions? I would have to hack out a chunk of that stud to make room for it to go up. I have not done much HVAC work so this part is a little new to me.

-

So our plan is to use 12x24 tile on the walls oriented vertically, with some 1x1 accent tile fields in the corners/niches, and also behind the vanity and maybe as the shower floor. Here is the sample:



2. The issue is that after adding up all the accent areas we wanted to do, it starts to really add up, and this stuff is $25 a sheet (1 sq ft). This is obviously from our local tile shop, so is there somewhere online that would have a good selection of small accent tile sheets in a wider variety of prices? Either that or we may want to change our layout to use different/less accents. I'll try to get a few mockups together with my initial layout ideas soon.

3. I'd like to install 1 or 2 can lights in the shower, so do these need to be anything special rather than standard enclosures since they will be in the shower area? I would expect not since it's not a steam shower, but just want to be sure.

4. I will be installing an overhead raincan in the center of the shower. So this supply line will have to go for about 24" in the attic just above the drywall, underneath the loose insulation. Do I need to do anything special to keep it from freezing here in the cold MN winters? Or will the insulation do the job OK?

5. The old shower was just an open front, but I will be framing up a shower door wall for the new shower to make it more enclosed. Due to our excessively hard water here, my wife thinks a shower door would be HellOnEarth to keep clean, so we will just use a short shower bar and a nice curtain for the opening. However, we may decide to do a door in the future, so I'd like to accommodate for putting one in. My question - is there a standard WxH to use for the door, or do they usually do them custom size? I was thinking the opening would match the bathroom door height, and the width would be around 26". Or should I adjust that?

6. I just did some plumbing supply research and purchasing and decided on this setup (Moen 276 Oil Rubbed Bronze). Anyone installed this one and have any hints or gotchas to share? It looks pretty straightforward. I will also be adding a volume control which will run the overhead raincan.


As always, thanks for the help!

[ckl111]

3. I'd like to install 1 or 2 can lights in the shower, so do these need to be anything special rather than standard enclosures since they will be in the shower area? I would expect not since it's not a steam shower, but just want to be sure.

You need a shower trim for the potlight regardless of whether it's for a steam shower or not.

4. I will be installing an overhead raincan in the center of the shower. So this supply line will have to go for about 24" in the attic just above the drywall, underneath the loose insulation. Do I need to do anything special to keep it from freezing here in the cold MN winters? Or will the insulation do the job OK?

I normally drop the ceiling above the shower and install the plumbing in the bulkhead. Running water supply lines into the attic space in a cold climate is bad news and usually against building code.

5. The old shower was just an open front, but I will be framing up a shower door wall for the new shower to make it more enclosed. Due to our excessively hard water here, my wife thinks a shower door would be HellOnEarth to keep clean, so we will just use a short shower bar and a nice curtain for the opening. However, we may decide to do a door in the future, so I'd like to accommodate for putting one in. My question - is there a standard WxH to use for the door, or do they usually do them custom size? I was thinking the opening would match the bathroom door height, and the width would be around 26". Or should I adjust that?

Framed shower doors are usually adjustable widths and available in many sizes. eg 24"-26", 26"-28". etc. Custom frameless doors can be any size you want.

6. I just did some plumbing supply research and purchasing and decided on this setup (Moen 276 Oil Rubbed Bronze). Anyone installed this one and have any hints or gotchas to share? It looks pretty straightforward. I will also be adding a volume control which will run the overhead raincan.

1. Four body jets is probably overkill in that small shower. There isn't enough room to point them all effectively.

2. That many fixtures usually required a 3/4" supply line or else you won't get enough pressure. You should also preferable have a 2" drain line for the shower but I know a lot of older houses only have 1 1/2" drains.

3. Two body jets is probably sufficient and you may be able to get away with a 1/2" supply line with 2.

4. My personal opinion, but I find body sprays over-rated. I have 4 in my shower but never use them. I prefer the large overhead rain head and a hand held shower massage.

[WendyHMN]

Hey Rob. Got your PM but I've been gardening like crazy during my one week between big experiments at work. I used the Moen 270 ORB set. With that I also had to get the thermostatic valve plus one volume valve for each head. And a straight arm so I could run the rainshower out of the ceiling. Well over $1000 which gave my serious sticker shock. FWIW, I agree with Colin about the body sprays. The rain head will give you plenty of water. Add a hand shower and you're set.

In Minnesota (where I have darn near memorized the plumbing code) you are allowed to run pipes through exterior walls and attic spaces as long as they are "well insulated", leaving it up to you or your inspector to decide what that means (assuming you pull a permit). I did run my rain shower pipe right above the ceiling in the attic. I slanted the pipe to the shower head to avoid standing water in the pipe. I also completely encased it in pipe insulation (along with every other pipe I put in), and it sits under a good R36 of blown cellulose. So far so good, though we didn't have a real winter this year.

Is that a load bearing wall? Do you need to cut a joist to extend your hvac line to the middle of that wall?

[circusfreak]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses.

So it sounds like the 4 spray set is probably not going to be worth the time, so I have canceled my order for it and will switch to something else.

I still have a hankering to try some body sprays, so I am thinking of switching to this system instead, which has 2 of them built in, so no extra work to install them. Plus, this one has an extra port off the built-in diverter, which I could use to run the overhead rainshower - cleaner than the separate volume control I was planning to use.

http://www.faucetdirect.com/delta-t1...ction/p1578085

I am going to forgo the handshower for now, as we only use it very sparingly, just for dog cleaning and shower cleaning. I can always add one on using something like this in the future:

http://www.faucetdirect.com/moen-a72...erter/p1030227

Wendy, thanks for the info on the attic run of pipe. I will research it a little more, and install with a slope as you mentioned, and possibly build a baffle above the drywall to house the run as mentioned elsewhere.

Hard to see in that shot of the vent, but the duct comes from the other side of the room and already passes under that wall, so there would be no joist to cut.

[Sherry Wolf]

Hi Rob...
We're just finishing up a total redo of our guest bath. Pretty much the same layout as yours except the door is at the end and there is a window over our tub. You can check out the pics if you'd like (just the tub surround) http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...rry%27s&page=5 Post 71

We had a floor heating vent. We moved it so it's under the vanity and the vent is now in the toe kick. It was pretty simple for us. I don't know what your access is or if that will work with your vanity, but it really cleaned up the floor and still gives us a heat outlet.

Enjoy your remodel

[ckl111]

Rob,

If you choose to put the pipe in the attic space, be sure to properly seal around any holes in the ceiling that you make. It is crucial that you maintain the air seal between inside of the house and the exterior to prevent air movement in the cavity. Any air movement will short circuit the insulating value of the blown-in insulation in the ceiling.

[circusfreak]

Sherry -
Thanks for that idea. My wife mentioned something similar so I may tear back the subfloor and do just that. Not sure if I will be able to do it though, as I may have a joist in the way, but it's worth a look!

Colin -
Thanks for the tip. I am pretty dead-set on having the rainshower, so I will be sure to get it insulated well enough and seal the outlet

[circusfreak]

Hi folks! I am heading out to pick up some materials and get started on this thing and had a quick couple questions for you folks.

Wendy in particular : I will taking your idea and sloping the 24" section of pipe that runs in the attic towards the rainshower to allow it to drain when not in use. Question is - how "flexible" is the 1/2" copper and how much of a downslope did you put in yours? I am just concerned that if I try to slope the pipe it will put some pressure on the fitting connection and possibly weaken it? Can you explain how you installed yours? Thanks!

I am going to use 5/8" rock for the ceiling for a little added beef since I will have tile on the shower ceiling. But for the walls, I am also tiling the whole room floor to ceiling - so do I want to still use 1/2", or bump up to 5/8" there as well?

Subflooring - my subfloor is all (I think) nominal 5/8" or OSB over 16" OC I joists. I assume I want something more substantial under the tile floor and shower mudbed? Should I beef it up with 1/2" plywood, or should I tear out the existing subfloor and replace with full 3/4" plywood?

Lighting - The plan is to have a 4" can light in the shower stall, a 4" can above the vanity, and a pair of wall sconces next to the mirror. That and the fan makes 4. I was going to have each of these on a separate switch, but I would have to slice up a stud to accomodate a 4-gang box (I can fit a 3-gang though), and I'd like to avoid it. Do you think it would be strange at all to have the can light in the shower and the one above the vanity on the same dimmer? Logically seems OK to me, but just wanted some opinions. If you think they all should be separate I will spend a little extra time to do the 4 gang box.

Thanks for the help.
Rob

[circusfreak]

Thanks BB for the reply.

For the can lights, I have airtight fixtures that are IC rated, and if I am not mistaken I just need to add a shower-rated trim to it, but the can itself does not need be anything special other than IC.

1/2" plywood over everything it it. Thanks.

Thanks for the switch ideas. I'll have to see about those over/under switches you speak of. I have not encountered those before.

For the attic pipe, I picked up a piece of PEX and fittings which I think will be a little easier to go around a can light and get the slope I am looking for. I'll do a little more reading on it first, but it sounds pretty slick to go that route.

Also on the attic pipe front, let me know if this sounds logical (it does to me). I am thinking of covering the length of exposed pipe with a shallow baffle of drywall or insulation board that is airtight with construction adhesive. then affix that to the top of the ceiling drywall. Between the bathroom and the attic where the pipe goes through, leave a slightly larger hole than necessary to allow heated house air up into said baffle. Then insulation over the top of everything. Seems like that would effectively make the baffle space into an extension of the heated house and keep pipe from possible freeze.

Thanks!
Rob