Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 02-22-2020, 12:39 PM   #61
ss3964spd
Moderator
 
ss3964spd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fairfax, Va
Posts: 2,788
Send a message via Yahoo to ss3964spd
I'm inclined to agree with your concern; while they may be able slope the new slab it's unlikely they'll slope the remaining section. Speaking of which, has your GC indicated how he plans to tie the new slab in with the old?

I'd not be concerned with telling him to not apply RG to the top of the final mud bed, IF the preslope bed is done correctly and the liner and drain are installed correctly. BTW, the liner is not actually adhered to the preslope bed, it just lays atop.

Has he talked about how he plans to address the thickness of the liner's folded corners?

I don't know what to say about the preslope. You've got the plumber saying it ain't him, and the GC saying it ain't the tile guy. Seems like the GC has to sort it out. That's his friggin job.

What I do know is that you're the customer, and writing the checks which, in my opinion, does give you the right to dictate to a degree how you want things done.

If this were mine, and leaning heavily on what I've learned here, I'd opt for a single, sloped mud bed, with CBU walls embedded in the mud and membrane covering the whole thing, with a matching drain.
__________________
Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent, but my ability to access it is intermittent.
ss3964spd is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2020, 12:43 PM   #62
Tiger Mountain Tile Inc
Registered Muser
 
Tiger Mountain Tile Inc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Issaquah, Washington
Posts: 6,760
Your tile installer, and apparently plumber, are both familiar with a traditional liner system so that's the one that I would go with. Liner systems have preslopes, a primary waterproof liner, and no redgard on top. And they still work.

There are industry guidelines to create the exact shower that I've described above. If they don't want to do it to industry guidelines then I would ask them to produce a diagram that is authorized by someone that would back the system that they want to do. (They won't produce anything)

If the shower leaks then it's not because of a lack of redgard on top.

If the plumbers install the liners in your local area and that's the rules then you'll have to do it the way that conforms to your local codes. In my mind, if the plumber installs the liner then it's his responsibility to see to it that water slopes to the drain. He slopes the drain pipe for the shower but he's not going to slope the liner?

But I wouldn't want a plumber doing the preslope just like I wouldn't want them doing the liner.

By the way, this isn't a curbless shower, is it?
__________________
Jim Upton
DIYTileGuy
Tiger Mountain Tile Inc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2020, 12:54 PM   #63
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 32,229
Brad, keep in mind that the "pan" is the pan liner. The whole floor system is usually not called the pan. If someone says pan, they are usually talking about the liner.

That said, the preslope under the pan is the plumbers job although most tile setters including myself will usually install it for the plumber since we've never known them to install it correctly. Plumbers tend to not care about the correct pitch or having the perimeter half way level with continuous slope towards the drain. It's usually half assed with high and low spots. They will leave it level in the corners with way too much pitch near the drain, etc.

The tile man is use to doing mud work and will usually do a much better job. The tile man knows he has to deal with the pitch, etc. so he'll usually do it right.

You have a pan liner, if it's not done correctly, do it over with a new liner the right way. Adding Redgard over the mud bed won't fix it. If the pan liner has a leak, it will still leak even with the Redgard applied. Install one membrane and trust it. If they don't have enough faith in their work to install the liner right, find another plumber or contractor.
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com

Last edited by Davy; 02-22-2020 at 01:00 PM.
Davy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2020, 04:57 PM   #64
TipsyMcStagger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: FL Gulf Coast & NYC
Posts: 137
Dan, I didn't get as far as asking about how they they will tie the new slab in with the old. This GC has done considerable other work at my home and in other projects which had new concrete abutting existing, they drilled into the existing and inserted rebar, secured with epoxy. At this point, I'm only assuming they will do something similar.

One of the GC's guys (who really has done nearly all the work up to this point) mentioned early on that he has a neat method of folding the pan corners and only secures them at the very top so as not to penetrate the liner down low. I guess that means he tells the plumber not to address the pan corners, but again, I'm making assumptions.

And if the liner is not actually adhered to the preslope bed, and the GC wants to address the corners, then it sounds like the plumber would be doing nothing more than laying a sheet of vinyl in situ and walking away. Which makes it even more odd that the GC claims that the pan is the plumber's domain. I must be missing something, unless the plumber's plan is to "glue" the liner to the sloped concrete slab.

Yes, Jim, this is a curbless shower. It'll end up being about twice as "deep" as the original. The new shower will be about 5 1/2' long vs. 3' for the original, which was sunken below the rest of the slab. I assume the curbless nature throws another wrench into this plan?

Davy, yes, I've been referring to the whole waterproofing system as the "pan." Thanks for setting me straight.

The only thing I can think of doing at this point is reaching out to the tile setter directly to ask for his thoughts on the matter. I'd like to see if I can talk him into creating the mudbed preslope after the plumber has set the drain but before the plumber installs the pan. If he would agree to do this, I think most of these issues would be alleviated.

I travel for a living and I'm out of the country right now, so no work is being done this coming week. Once I'm back after the end of the month, it should be full speed ahead to get this finished before I travel again.

Thanks for all the continued good input.
__________________
Brad

Last edited by TipsyMcStagger; 02-22-2020 at 05:16 PM. Reason: spelling
TipsyMcStagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2020, 07:05 PM   #65
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 13,331
FWIW, you do not bond the liner to the preslope...it just lays there, attached to the drain, the outside of the curb (if there is one), and higher up the wall with no penetrations below the top of the curb, or in your case, the main floor. The setting bed applied on top of it just holds it in place by virtue of it's thickness and weight.

But, have to ask, where and how are you going to end the liner so moisture won't get in underneath it? This would imply you must extend it out into the room, but then, you'd need to apply a mudbed on top of it outside of the shower. Can you afford the height of the main floor outside of the shower?

IMHO, a curbless, linear shower is best made with a different method - a sheet membrane that can easily extend outside the shower, and if using say Kerdi, you could use Ditra outside the shower, and create a totally waterproof area.

National plumbing code calls for the waterproofing to be sloped. How does that happen if it is flat on the floor? While it may be possible your locale amends that, generally, they can make things more strict, but not less, and flat would be less. ALso, how would you do a water flood test of the liner if it doesn't go out into the room? The liner would be below the level of the floor outside the shower to account for the setting bed on top (nominally, at least 1.25" thick). You'd want a drain compatible with the selected waterproofing. If you don't go with a surface applied sheet, I see a small curb in your future should you keep with a traditional liner.

A flood test is usually called for in the plumbing codes, and first, it should not leak, then second, it should allow ALL of the water to drain out without pools. That won't happen unless there's slope and the slope is continuous (code wants a minimum of 1/4" per foot).
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2020, 07:17 PM   #66
TipsyMcStagger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: FL Gulf Coast & NYC
Posts: 137
Thanks Jim. Unfortunately, I can't answer all of those questions.

I did just have a conversation with the tile setter. He is an employee of a flooring company and I gather he is typically not privy to making all decisions regarding the construction methods used. But he said he thinks the best direction would be to forgo the vinyl pan and simply use the topical liquid membrane on the mudbed, since they typically use the topical liquid membrane anyway (normally, in a addition to the vinyl pan) and since the contract calls for the Durock to be coated with liquid membrane (Redgard).

I'm going to have to have further discussion with the GC about all of this when I'm back in the states.
__________________
Brad
TipsyMcStagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2020, 09:03 PM   #67
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 13,331
Go to www.custombuildingproducts.com and download the procedure to build a shower with Redgard. Here is a diagram of how it must be done per the manufacturer. https://www.custombuildingproducts.c...5809/CB414.pdf

The TCNA handbook is the industry bible and contains three possible methods to build a shower properly, using Redgard...procedure B414.

You should insist on them following the TCNA handbook method and the Custom Building Products instructions on proper installation. They'll need a wet film thickness gauge to verify their installation technique is proper. The hassle with any liquid applied membrane is that it MUST be installed between the min/max wet film thickness as the manufacturer calls out. Too thick is as bad as too thin, and you don't want pinholes or runs, either. IMHO, a sheet membrane is more reliable as you only need to verify seams versus the entire area to have it waterproof.

Custom has a security issue with their website. The stuff is there, but you have to bypass the safety features of your browser, or get it from the TCNA. To get this file, I had to print to pdf, I couldn't just say save it, the browser blocked it because of the security issue.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf CB414.pdf (239.3 KB, 20 views)
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.

Last edited by jadnashua; 02-24-2020 at 02:21 PM. Reason: Fixed the reference to point to the shower build, not generic crack isolation, etc.
jadnashua is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2020, 09:31 PM   #68
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 32,229
You can build a curbless shower with a vinyl pan liner, the pan just needs to be low enough to fold up and hold water. The showers I've made like that do usually have the liner come out into the bath floor 4-6 inches. Those showers were on wood subfloors and were framed plenty low just for that purpose. The surface membrane system does only use one mud bed, which does help with depth. You just have to make sure the drain you have works with that system.

Also, I have to disagree with what Jim said. I use to think the same way before I installed a few paint on membranes. It's not difficult to install correctly. When using the fabric along with the paint on membrane, there's little chance of leaving a pinhole. In my opinion, the seams in Kerdi or other similar type membrane are more likely to leak than a paint on membrane when used with fabric.
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com

Last edited by Davy; 02-22-2020 at 10:04 PM.
Davy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-22-2020, 10:35 PM   #69
TipsyMcStagger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: FL Gulf Coast & NYC
Posts: 137
Thanks for the TCNA references. I'll have a look at them when I have a chance.

The PVC Quickdrain Showerline linear drain I had the plumber order specifically indicates compatibility with both sheet and liquid membranes, which is one of the reasons I chose it.

I applied Regard myself to the walls of my other bathroom a couple of years ago, so I'm somewhat familiar with it. And yes, I recall using the little depth tool to verify the mil thickness, as well as reading that applying too much was as bad as applying too little.

Thanks again for the continued good feedback.
__________________
Brad
TipsyMcStagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-24-2020, 01:08 PM   #70
e3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: mi.
Posts: 4,829
Send a message via Yahoo to e3
JIM--I think you have the wrong details called out! BUT, you got that right about the wet film gauges, its critical to get 2 coats at the required thickness..(when drying it shrinks)
__________________
Eric
Noble Company
e3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-24-2020, 01:55 PM   #71
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 89,558
Eric's right about the Handbook references, Jim. While those may be called out somewhere on Custom's site for RedGard, they have nothing at all to do with shower construction or waterproofing.

And all I can get from the links to Custom right now is a Security Risk Warning. Don't know if that's Custom's problem or my browser, but I've never seen it before from their site.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-24-2020, 03:12 PM   #72
e3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: mi.
Posts: 4,829
Send a message via Yahoo to e3
This post no longer applied.
__________________
Eric
Noble Company

Last edited by e3; 02-24-2020 at 03:27 PM. Reason: corrected.
e3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-24-2020, 03:13 PM   #73
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 13,331
I fixed the reference...thanks for keeping me honest!
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-24-2020, 03:20 PM   #74
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 13,331
Yes, Custom has an issue with their website. I went back, downloaded the relevant procedure, and fixed my post.
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-27-2020, 09:23 AM   #75
TipsyMcStagger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: FL Gulf Coast & NYC
Posts: 137
I'm asking the following not because I'm interested in proceeding with a construction method that's not recommend but simply to gain a better understanding of the recommended methods;

With a traditional pan installation, theoretically, if water makes its way underneath the tile, that water will make its way to the weep holes in the mudbed layer and will be evacuated (assuming the mudbed is properly pitched to the drain).

With linear drains that are designed for topical waterproofing, there are no weep holes in the drain assembly. You guys have pointed out that it's not recommended to use the double waterproofing method because water can become trapped between the layers of waterproofing.

But how would that be any different than a breached topical waterproofing layer, if it were installed with no secondary waterproofing layer beneath it? In other words, if there are no weep holes in the drain assembly, and the topical waterproofing fails, water will still migrate into the mudbed and have no where to go, since there are no weep holes.

As an aside, I spoke with QuickDrain technical support last week and they said if using the double waterproofing method, a flange should be installed with the QuickDrain, so there will be weep holes for water between the waterproofing layers to escape. They pointed out that these weep holes also create an avenue for water to enter between the layers, should there ever be a sewage backup. But I guess the same risk exists with any installation where weep holes are present.

But again, this advice from QuickDrain makes me wonder why you're creating a path for water to escape (weep holes) between the layers of double waterproofing - essentially, a contingency plan should the topical waterproofing layer fail. But if installing a topical waterproofing system alone (no secondary waterproofing), there are no weep holes and therefore no contingency plan for water to escape, should there be a failure of the topical waterproofing layer.
__________________
Brad
TipsyMcStagger is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to handle carpet to to tile transition? Toddman Tile Forum/Advice Board 6 05-20-2010 05:49 AM
How to handle framing-concrete transition anotherjohn Tile Forum/Advice Board 4 03-04-2009 07:37 PM
Kitchen Tile project - some questions (un-flat floor & transition to hardwood) SmallSea Tile Forum/Advice Board 4 05-21-2007 10:43 AM
Pitched Shower Ceiling abell Tile Forum/Advice Board 1 02-17-2004 11:08 AM
shower pan liner not pitched JP Tile Forum/Advice Board 2 12-14-2001 04:35 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:12 AM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC