Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Cleaning, Restoration and Sealing

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 01-29-2020, 09:01 PM   #1
Mike1015
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 3
Sealer reacted with Carrara marble causing yellow stains

Hello all,

I installed some honed carrara mosaic tile on a bathroom floor using white modifed thinset. I used Miracle 511 Impregnator sealer as a grout release. Then grouted using laticrete permacolor. I now have a whole bunch of the tiles that have a bright yellow (color of a highlighter) stains in the tile.SUCKS! Thankfully my floor and not a customers.... Called Miracle tech support and they say it is the sealer reacting with the cheap adhesive the manufacturer used to adhere the mesh to the stone. Checking to see if anyone has run into this issue and how to fix it?? Assuming I need to make a poultice of some kind but looking to see if anyone has had any good results in fixing the problem. I'm thinking whiting and mineral spirits? Any help would be great!
__________________
Mike
Mike1015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 01-30-2020, 04:59 PM   #2
rmckee84
Moderator
 
rmckee84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 3,006
I had the exact same issue, I used a sealer the was recommended (511) and the next day random pieces were highlighter yellow. The final conclusion was that the sealer had a reaction to the glue that is used with the mesh backing. I tried several things and nothing removed the stains. Luckily I had sealed prior to installing so I just had to remove or not use the sheets with multiple stained tiles. I had the same experience with customer service, they were not helpful at all.
__________________
Jack of most trades, master of none...
Ryan McKee
McKee Construction & Custom Tile
rmckee84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-31-2020, 08:11 AM   #3
speed51133
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Milwaukee WI area
Posts: 1,035
you could try soaking the stained tile with some kind of oxygenated bleach, like oxalic acid.

do you have a spare sheet? put some sealer on it and try to re-create the stain. then try oxalic acid on that. you would mix the acid with warm water then let the marble soak it up. I have no idea if it would even react with whatever chemical the yellow stain is.
__________________
Mike
speed51133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-31-2020, 03:25 PM   #4
fhueston
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 163
the problem is not the sealer...take a look at the following article I wrote

Stone Impregnating Sealers are not Bullet Proof
By Frederick M. Hueston
I receive several calls a week with questions on the use of impregnating type sealers for use on outdoor stone as well as interior wet areas such as showers, water fountains etc. The question is simple: Should I seal my stone in these conditions. The following article will provide a reason why stone in wet areas should not be sealed.

Before we discuss the reason why we shouldn’t stone in these conditions a few definitions are necessary
Impregnators or penetrating sealers: Impregnators are designed to penetrate below the surface of the stone and deposit solid particles in the pores of the stone or to coat the individual minerals below the surface of the stone. Water, oil and dirt are restricted from entering the stone. Impregnators can be solvent, or water based. Most impregnators are vapor permeable.
Vapor Permeable: breathability, vapor permeability describes a stones ability to allow water vapor to pass through it.

The case for not sealing stone in wet environments
When stone is exposed to unregulated humidity and temperature fluctuations, like it would in an outdoor environment or in a shower the air contains vapor in what we know as humidity. Temperature along with humidity can result in condensation as well.
Most of the impregnators on the market today our breathable. This simple means that the stone will be protected from water entering the pores of the stone in liquid form but will allow water vapor to pass.
In an wet environments vapor can be present for several reason, rain, high humidity, temperature fluctuations, steam etc. Since these impregnators are breathable this vapor can easily penetrate into the stone. One would think that this is a positive. The fact is that once the vapor enters the stone it can condense and become a liquid. Since impregnators protect against water in its liquid phase it becomes trapped within the stones pores and will not escape until it evaporates or in other words turns into a vapor. Once this water becomes trapped it can result in all kinds of problems. Stones with iron content can begin to oxidize, natural salts with in the stone can become dissolved and cause pitting and spalling. Aesthetically the stone will appear darker since it is constantly wet.
This problem is becoming more of an issue with the increase of stone being used in showers and exterior environments. There are currently several people doing experiments demonstrate that sealer in wet environments can cause these issues. I strongly believe that care should be taken when sealing stone in these wet environments.
__________________
Fred
fhueston is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-31-2020, 04:11 PM   #5
speed51133
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Milwaukee WI area
Posts: 1,035
so the problem is not the sealer, but your article states sealers cause problems.

at any rate, i don't see how the yellowing is addressed or relevant to your article.
__________________
Mike
speed51133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-31-2020, 06:23 PM   #6
Mike1015
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 3
And it is not in a wet location. It is a powder room. I made a quick sample board and put down the sealer. You can kinda see it in the picture, much much worse in person. The other picture shows the majority of affected tiles with green tape.
Attached Images
  
__________________
Mike
Mike1015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-02-2020, 07:54 AM   #7
fhueston
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 163
sorry posted the wrong article..here is the correct one

OXIDATION OF ELEMENTAL IRON WITHIN STONE
SURFACES(YELLOWING OF STONE SURFACES)
Frederick M. Hueston

Sitting in my office one morning I received a call from a very upset homebuilder. He told me he was building a
two million-dollar home on the west coast of Florida. They installed nearly 3500 square feet of a white statuary
marble tile. Over the weekend one of the water pipes broke in a bathroom and completely flooded the home.
They managed to vacuum all the water and started to access the damages. Beside warped wood, soaked drywall
and an irate homeowner the marble tile seemed fine except for some minor water spotting. After several weeks
the replacement of warped wood and drywall began and then he noticed the white marble tile turning yellow. At
first he thought it might be some type of residue so they tried cleaning the marble with some bleach and waterthe
yellowing was still there. The homeowner was getting more and more irate and was threatening a lawsuit.
He asked if I could get down there right away and take a look at the marble and suggest what to do.
The above story is not uncommon and is a frequent occurrence on white marble tiles exposed to flooding. Can
the yellowing be removed or does it need to be replaced? What causes the yellowing and will it get worse. The
following is an explanation of yellowing in white marble and some techniques that may help.
Why Does White Marble Turn Yellow?
The problem of yellowed white marble is not uncommon. All over the United States I have encountered yellow
to brown marble. Although flooding is a common cause there are several other reasons this color change will
occur.
1. Improper Maintenance- As marble wears the highly polished surface begins to disappear. The wearing of
this polish causes the surface to become rough and is a magnet for dirt. If improper cleaners are used, this dirt
begins to accumulate in the pores of the stone and will turn yellow. It is surprising how often I have seen this
condition on marble. Upon investigation in these cases I have found dirty mops being used. Mops used to
clean the restrooms and/or kitchens were also used to clean the marble floors. Floors are mopped with strong
cleaners or wax cleaner combinations or with no cleaners at all.
Cure: If you suspect yellowing due to improper maintenance the marble tile will have to be cleaned with an
alkaline marble cleaner. I would suggest a heavy duty stone cleaner. Be sure the stone cleaner you buy is
alkaline and not an acid since acid cleaners will dull the polish. Apply the cleaner to the marble and scrub with
a soft brush. Be sure to rinse the floor throughly. It may be necessary to repeat this procedure several times to
remove all the imbedded dirt. If after cleaning the marble is dull I would suggest re-polishing and an
application of a good quality penetrating sealer(impregnator). If after several cleaning’s the yellowing is not
removed than proceed to the next cause.

2. Wax Build-up or Coatings- Many marble floors are coated with waxes, acrylics, urethane and other coatings.
Many of these coatings are not specifically designed for use on marble floors. Some of these coatings are of
poor quality and will begin to yellow. It is not uncommon for coating to be applied in multiple coats. As the
coating builds up it becomes soft and dirt is easily embedded in the soft layer. These coatings require frequent
stripping which is often neglected.
Another process used for polishing marble floors is a process known as recrystallazation. If this process is
applied to a white marble floor that contains moisture it will turn the marble yellow. If this process is to be
used, it is important that the marble be dry.
CURE: To remove yellowing due to a wax or coating buildup the marble will need to stripped with a
commercial wax stripper. I would strongly suggest using a stripper manufactured by the same company as the
floor wax or coating. This will help avoid incompatibility problems. Follow the directions on the stripper’s
label and be sure to rinse the floor throughly. These strippers often require the use of abrasive pads which can
scratch and damage the marble surface. Before undertaking the entire project perform a small test to determine
results.
If the marble tile has been recrystallized, it will be necessary to remove the recrystallized layer. This layer can
often be removed by polishing the tile with a powder marble polish containing oxalic acid. Apply the powder to
the tile, added water and work into a slurry with a hog hair pad and a standard buffing machine. Continue to
work until yellowing has disappeared. If this technique fails then the tile will have to be re-honed. It is strongly
suggested that the polishing and honing procedure be performed by trained individuals. If these techniques fail
to remove the yellowing then proceed to the next cause.
3. Iron Staining- Many white marble tiles contain naturally occurring deposits of iron. Iron is a mineral found
in stone and can occur randomly throughout the stone. If iron is present in the marble tile, it will begin to
oxidize when exposed to water or other oxidizers such as acids and household bleach. White marble tiles can
remain on a floor for years without yellowing then over time may slowly turn yellow and in severe causes may
turn completely brown. This oxidation process is accelerated when the tile is saturated as in the flood in the
above example. This process of oxidation is similar to the rusting of metal. If you expose a brand new nail to
water and air it will turn brown and rust. The same process is occurring with the iron in the marble. If water
and/ or air is eliminated the iron will not oxidize. This is the reason certain white marble suddenly turn yellow.
The process is difficult to reverse and replacement of the tile may be necessary. The following stain removal
technique has proved successful in several cases. Before testing this procedure it is important to first determine
if iron is the cause.
Testing for Iron:
1. Before assuming the marble is yellowed due to iron be sure to attempt cleaning and stripping as outlined in
#1 & 2 cause above. If these procedures fail then testing for iron will be necessary.
2. If a flood has occurred or excessive water was used first check the water for iron. There are several
inexpensive test kits available that can be used to check the iron content in water. Check with your local
plumbing supply store or store carrying water softening supplies. If any amount of iron is detected then it is
possible iron has entered the stone through the water supply. To eliminate the iron there are chelating chemicals
that can be added to the water to prevent the iron from staining. This is very important if the tile is cleaned withthis water.
3. If the water contains no iron and even if it does the tile should be checked for iron content. Remove one tile
and contact a testing lab and have them analyzed the tile for total iron. If there are spare tiles that have never
been installed also have them tested for total iron. If iron is present naturally in this stone, it will probably be
detected in the spare tile. If the results return with iron present then the following procedure should be tested.
4. Check the tile for moisture. A moisture meter is a useful instrument that can be employed to check the tile
for moisture. If the tile contains water, it is very possible that iron is beginning to oxidize.
Removing Iron Staining:
1. Prepare a solution of water and the following chemical: Sodium Hydro sulfite and Sodium Metabisulfite.
These chemicals are available in a product called Iron-Out(TM) from your plumbing supply or home center.
Mix a solution in water and apply to the effected tile. Allow solution to soak into tile and keep wet for several
hours. Do not allow solution to dry. After several hours pick up excess solution with a wet vacuum and rinse
throughly with water and a chelating agent such as EDTA. Be prepared to repolish the marble since these
chemicals can cause etching.
2. If the above procedure fails than prepare a poultice with diatomaceous earth and the Iron Out(TM). Mix the
poultice into a thick paste and apply to a small area. Cover the poultice with plastic and allow it to sit covered
for 24 hours. After 24 hours remove the poultice paste and rinse the area with water and a chelating agent. If
the stain is removed, the entire floor can be treated. If the stain still remains then replacement is the only
solution.
3. There are also some new chemicals that are available which contain Ammonium Thioglycolate which look
promising for removing iron oxidation. Check with several stone maintenance supply companies.
Before the above procedure can be performed, it is important that the effected tiles be dry. If water or moisture
are still present, oxidation of iron may continue
The yellowing of white marble is a common problem. New installations should be sealed with a good quality
penetrating sealer(impregnator) Which will help prevent oxidation of the iron by eliminating moisture.
The above procedure has proven successful in some cases of iron staining however if the outlined test does not
produce the desired results I would recommend replacement of the effected tiles.
__________________
Fred
fhueston is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-02-2020, 09:00 AM   #8
Mike1015
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 3
Okay, but throughout the article it blames water saturation as the reason for this oxidation. Then after removing the oxidation stains, sealing with an impregnating sealer. The tile has never been saturated with water. Unless the penetrating sealer that I used is what caused the oxidation I don't see how the article helps or is relevant?
__________________
Mike
Mike1015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-03-2020, 07:57 AM   #9
speed51133
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Milwaukee WI area
Posts: 1,035
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...564-story.html

i'd try these with your test marble that you yellowed first.
__________________
Mike
speed51133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-03-2020, 09:07 AM   #10
Kman
Moderator
 
Kman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NW Arkansas, Ozark Mountains
Posts: 11,285
Fred, if you'd like to refer to one of your articles, or any other article, it's better to post a link to it, or maybe post a relevant excerpt with a link to the article, rather than post the entire article here.

Thanks.
__________________
Kevin

The top ten reasons to procrastinate:

1.
Kman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yellow Stains in Brand New Shower Jeff1976 Tile Forum/Advice Board 30 03-06-2015 09:39 AM
White carrara marble turned yellow after installation MarkTarkus Cleaning, Restoration and Sealing 79 05-17-2014 12:11 AM
White Carrara Marble Turning Yellow??? Jobo Tile Forum/Advice Board 14 03-12-2011 08:33 AM
yellow stains pman Tile Forum/Advice Board 22 06-02-2009 04:50 PM
Sealer - Honed Carrara Marble - Pre-sealed nolaz Cleaning, Restoration and Sealing 2 05-12-2009 03:30 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:28 AM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC