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Unread 01-12-2019, 09:31 PM   #1
outdoorsgal
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CX, thx for your reply. We took out the 1' soffit over the shower, so now I believe the ceiling is 8'. I will remeasure if you suggest I do so. When we had the soffit and I would shower in the bathtub I would often times notice drips of water forming on the soffit. In the guest bath, where the kid's shower, they've gotten shampoo up there. This isn't a regular occurrence, just once, but having children and with a neighbor of mine who waterproofed the whole bathroom I was wondering if this would be helpful.

To clarify, if ceiling is 8' and the water droplets aren't much of an issue, I should prime and paint a coat (or prime and paint in one ok?) and then do another coat after shower/bathroom is finished while only prime/painting just below where the wainscoat will go? Is satin ok or should I go with semi-gloss to be on the safe side as far as helping resist moisture and mold...?

thx much!
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Unread 01-12-2019, 10:00 PM   #2
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For an eight-foot ceiling, Kim, I would do nothing but prime and paint, but that's entirely up to you.

I'm not sure just how I feel about the new trend toward the "primer and paint" all in one products we now see so many of. I've used it several times recently, but over properly primed surfaces as is my training and habit. I just don't know what makes them self-priming and don't know just how well they work in that application. But us old guys tend to be doubtful of them new-fangled, short-cut products.

I don't know that gloss paint is any better at resisting moisture or mold. There shouldn't be excessive moisture in the room if you have a properly sized exhaust fan and use it. If you don't have such a fan, I recommend you make that part of your project. If you get mold growing on any painted surface in that room you have some problem other than the sheen of your paint.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 01-12-2019, 10:16 PM   #3
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thx for your advice! Sounds like I should get primer. I've never used it so I guess I'm not fully aware of it's application other than paint not absorbing into drywall with the use of it. I also keep forgetting that we started this project due to water getting behind the grout after having lived in this 40 year+ old house for 15 years and having had the wall sealed up with a black trash bag after having still showered in the shower with a part of the wall being pushed in an inch or so, when we opened the wall 3-4 years later there was pretty much no mold! With that, I'm worrying way too much it seems. I've read that certain sheens should be used in the bathroom to prevent mold, but in Phoenix, maybe I'm safe.

As for a vent, the bathroom has a small window, no vent but I actually did get a vent installed a couple of weeks ago so I'm happy about that. I'm especially happy that it has a heater and I'm sure I'll love the features of the light and nightlight, too.
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Unread 01-12-2019, 10:26 PM   #4
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Yes, primer is important. I don't like the combination products either that allegedly obviate the need for primer. I am not as old as CX but share the same distrust.
It's even worse when you stain wood and choose a combination product that contains stain and clear coat in one application. The results are splotchy and, well, mediocre at best.
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Unread 01-12-2019, 10:29 PM   #5
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Put that exhaust fan on a timer and never look back.

I'm hoping we'll hear from some real paint experts about that self-priming paint. I just don't know enough about it (read, nothing) to even have a useful opinion at this point and I'd like to know.
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Unread 01-13-2019, 08:12 AM   #6
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I believe one reason semi gloss/gloss is often recommended for a bathroom is to make wipe downs, especially around the sink area, easier. Tooth paste splatters and other things simply come off semi gloss easier than it does off satin, etc. A lot of the paints sold as bathroom paint also have additives to reduce the chance of mold/mildew.

I'm also firmly in the prime, then paint, camp.
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Unread 01-13-2019, 10:37 AM   #7
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Do you know what the difference in formulation might be for the alleged "paint and primer" mixtures, Dan?
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Unread 01-14-2019, 08:38 AM   #8
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No idea whatsoever, cx, but do know the all-in-one paints are taking over the isles in my local Lowes and Depot stores whereas they aren't nearly as represented in "real" paint stores.
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Unread 01-14-2019, 01:37 PM   #9
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"Paint and primer in one" is total 100% marketing. I'm liking tile and the industry a lot more, as frankly the tile industry really tries a lot harder to prevent failures and make sure things actually work as they say and provide guidance and support and warranties than the paint industry. The paint industry seems to encourage/want failure, as nobody's going to stop buying paint (well, for exteriors they have, with the proliferation of vinyl siding.) For a fun example, one time I called up Mapei and asked the guy on the phone if Mapei stuff at Lowes was "factory seconds" like often paint is at big box stores, from PPG, SW, etc. He said "No, we can't do that. If paint peels off a wall, nothing really happens. If a tile falls off a 5 story building and kills someone, that's not a good situation for us..."

Anyway, paint and primer in one. Firstly, if you look at the can's instructions (nobody does) it will say all the substrates you still need to use primer for.

So for example, Benjamin Moore Regal's TDS says:
Quote:
Difficult Substrates: Benjamin Moore & Co. offers a number of
specialty primers for use over difficult substrates such as
bleeding woods, grease stains, crayon markings, hard glossy
surfaces, galvanized metal, or other substrates where paint
adhesion or stain suppression is a particular problem. Your
Benjamin Moore® retailer can recommend the right problemsolving
primer for your special needs.
But, the can says "Paint and Primer in One."

I think to put it simply, you need primer for three reasons. One, to promote adhesion for a surface where your paint would not have good adhesion. Two, to seal a surface with too much porosity/to make porosity even on the surface. Three, to block stains the paint cannot block (usually oil or shellac primer over grease, etc.) There's more, some for example dealing with PH issues from masonry/plaster, but those are the main ones.

So "paint and primer in one" generally means the paint will recoat another latex paint and adhere adequately enough, and also generally means bare drywall doesn't need priming to adhere. If the surface is dirty, it may or may not bleed through or not adhere. If there's knots in the wood, almost definitely they'll come through, etc.

Anyway, as far as the question about bare drywall specifically. I would still prime if given the option. Primer would help adhesion (I've tested it side by side with the same "self priming" paint, and masking tape...) by at the very least trapping any drywall dust in the primer (you should always use a dry mop to get rid of as much drywall dust as you can...) More subtly, without primer you can, but won't always have issues with "picture framing" and joints telegraphing through more.

If you prime, everything has even porosity, whereas your joints with joint compound have a different porosity than the drywall paper, like thinset and tiles and substrates, your surface porosities determine a lot in painting, you'll get different mil thicknesses based on the porosity, and thus your joints will show through. As well, lately with a few paints, due to a trend in cutting recoat times, partially out of VOC regulations, but partially to have less warranty claims with offgasing or peeling, mostly because nobody follows them anyway, I've had issues. On one job with one paint, a very expensive brand that will remain nameless, I think because the drywall was never primed by the original painter before us, and the paint had a short recoat time, I had a lot of issues with picture framing, as in, cut lines looking different than rolled lines, and "boxes" around cut in light fixtures, etc. It's because the drywall just sucked the paint in so quickly in 2 minutes it would be dry to the touch. I solved the problem enough to get through the job (guy I was subbing with wouldn't prime, did 3 coats with more expensive paint than a primer would cost...) by adding extender to lengthen the dry time.

Let's see, what else. I read a story about Sherwin Williams' "Super Paint" (one of the first paint and primers in one, but that may go to Behr, not sure...) that I'm inclined to believe is true. They have a "contractor grade" paint called Pro-Mar 200, generally thinner, runny, mostly considered pretty mediocre grade paint. To make "Super Paint" and make it paint and primer in one, they simply added a drag additive to Pro-Mar 200, so people would be more likely to put it on at a thicker mil thickness.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7290/2...f85c0b00_o.jpg
Anyway, it's way too late here and I should go to bed instead of rambling about paint. But this picture here (not mine, a paint blogger I sometimes agree with and sometimes don't...) used a primer on one side of a piece of trim that seals very well, and on the other side used just the factory MDF mediocre primer. As you can see, the finish is crazily different just because the surface porosity was changed. With less porosity, the paint leveled much more smoothly, as it just had more time to dry and level.

I hope this wasn't too too much. But anyway, I just wanted to show the similarities of paint and thinsets.
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Unread 01-14-2019, 01:58 PM   #10
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^^^ Who IS that masked man?

Thanks for the, um, primer on paint and primer, Joe. Well done!
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Unread 01-14-2019, 02:20 PM   #11
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Not really related (so apologies for that) but since Joe brought up Sherwin Williams: I spent a lot of dollars at their store getting myself some of their "Emerald" for various wall painting projects. Despite using their primer and proper curing time, I had adhesion issues on regular drywall. Plus, in some buckets I found clumps of latex at the bottom. The paint behaved nicely on the brush/roller, though.
In my uneducated perception of paints, Sherwin Williams strikes me as somewhat old-fashioned, resting on past accomplishments rather than innovative new products. I've come to the conclusion that the equivalents you can find at the big box stores are just as good (aside from those made by Sherwin Williams). Sometimes it pays to pay more. Not with Emerald, at least in my humble estimation.
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Unread 01-14-2019, 03:29 PM   #12
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Thanks, Joe. If you'll add some biographical information to your User Profile it will help our other visitors understand from where the information is coming.

Kim, I'm sorry we hijacked your thread for this painting seminar. I may copy some of it to the Mud Box so maybe some other painter will see it and comment further.
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Unread 01-14-2019, 05:13 PM   #13
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I've had some recent experience with the new combination primer/paint.
When I renovated two bedrooms several years ago I used a primer and the Behr old school paint as that was all that was available. I had no problems.
When I did my recent renovation project, the old school paint was not available so I used the combination Behr primer/paint.
For both projects I ran a ribbon of the blue painters tape above the base boards before I caulked the base.
On the recent project almost all the wall paint came off with the tape when I removed it. Perhaps I did something different but I attribute my problem to the lack of a primer. In the future I will definitely apply a coat of primer prior to painting.
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Unread 01-15-2019, 01:44 AM   #14
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Honestly I've had dud gallons from all of the Big 3 (PPG, SW, Benjamin Moore.) Duds as in chunks, randomly not adhering for no reason, etc. A month after a big SW failure, I got a gallon of BM Aura (their most expensive paint) with chunks in it on another job, gallon was fresh from the store, had no chance to freeze/etc during our transit with it. PPG I've gotten dud stuff from HD/Lowes, but not from a PPG store, but I've bought relatively little at an actual PPG store.

I don't know how much this affects the mortar industries, but in paint a big issue is raw material sourcing from China. I guess mortars have it easier, as presumably more materials are local, and even with special additives/etc, at the end of the day it's likely the Portland and sand in the mortar doing 99% of the job. But I think the companies getting raw materials likely are having supply chain issues in China, with them initially sending a good batch of _____ then 4 batches later sending garbage once they're hooked.

The other thing I've heard is QC and testers have been cut, I read a former paint chemist (on painttalk) talk about this. He described it in the 80s, that there would be people looking at all the raws under microscopes, to check them at the factories, and now it's just not the case, everything just gets dumped in without that. I'd say in general as well, they're not paying for R&D nearly as much anymore, and they just let the painters be cheap R&D. If there's an issue, just throw another gallon at them. At the same time, with new VOC regs, and inflation, the chemists need to be constantly pushing the edge of paints, and make them use different ingredients/systems, and less expensive stuff. Nowadays due to a titanium shortage a lot of paints are actually using a colored resin, for example (which actually seems to be working really well...)

Oh, one thing as well. VOC regulations are lots of times bullshit. VOC is not necessarily equal to human health or chemical sensitivities. As a generality yes, a 500g VOC oil based paint or poly will harm your health more than a 0 VOC latex, but it's still not that simple. VOC regulations only apply to the ozone layer, and how VOCs affect the ozone layer. They have 0 to do with human health. Then of course, some stuff is just weird. Acetone is a VOC exempt solvent. You can put as much acetone as you want in any paint. But, acetic acid (vinegar) is considered a VOC. As far as painter/occupancy health, you're best off using a paint marketed for hospitals (BM's Natura and Sherwin's Harmony) if it's something you're aiming for "low VOC" means nothing at all in this context. For example, with my ceiling paint example (I'll spill the beans, it's BM's "yellow can" 508 ceiling paint...) it's technically a 0 VOC paint, but reeks like ammonia. Why? Ammonia is not considered a VOC, and it speeds drying. So because it dried so fast and offgassed the ammonia so quick, our and the occupants eyes were burning. When we added Floetrol (I believe it's propylene glycol?) it technically adds VOCs to the gallon, and it smelled a lot less and stopped burning our eyes, with adding MORE VOCs. Another example was using a certain Zinsser "Odorless" oil primer. Usually oil primers reek, but this stuff was pretty OK to use, especially in an occupied house (smoke damage from cooking fires meant we had to do all the walls...) The SW salesman sold the guy I was working with more SW primer by saying the SW primer has lower VOCs, even though the SW primer absolutely reeks.

So, one guy I worked with, after rambling about paints forever said "Joe, the painter for whom no paint is good enough for." In my case, I do use some box store paints sometimes (I find Valspar 2000 perfect for rentals/etc, and even have it in my own house in a lot of rooms...) But a lot is just trial and error and finding stuff you like. As a generality I'd tell people to spend the most money they can on a trim paint, and that wall paint doesn't matter quite as much. You'd have a much better job with $20 a gallon wall paint, and a $50 a gallon hybrid oil trim paint than using $35-40 latex on walls and trim. Trim is what you actually touch and feel, walls not so much. If I were to recommend a paint for walls, I'd say SW's Cashmere in any sheen, and BM's "Ben" as well. Notably Cashmere is not "Paint and Primer in One" and I find it brushes out better than say, Super Paint. For trim, I would say Benjamin Moore Advance or SW's new Emerald Urethane Alkyd (crazy expensive without contractor pricing, though...) Ceilings I've found SW's "Masterhide" (maybe a local offering only...) to be the best, as it has no sheen and dries dead flat, and is also a little gray, it hides a lot of flaws in ceilings. Of course as well, prep matters, too, but that's obvious. My absolute favorite company was Muralo but California Paint killed that company, but Muralo was the only company I'd trust their products 100%. As far as Sherwin Williams, personally I don't like Emerald but found adhesion to be pretty decent a year or so ago when I used it, I just find it brushes out draggy and brushy looking. Sherwin really has a smart business strategy. They tend to wait for other people to make an innovative product, let the other company do the R&D, and then make a "Me Too!" product like it. For example, Ben Moore Advance was one of the first oil/water alkyd hybrids, and it took a while for Sherwin to make one. But with all these companies, you must understand consumer house paints are only a small part of their market. Sherwin and PPG both make paints for say, military gun boats, automobiles, nuclear power plants, helicopter pads, etc. I'm fairly certain Sherwin acquiring Valspar was about them wanting Valspar's automotive division, for example, they didn't care about the house paints at all. By comparison Benjamin Moore has some industrial products but I think comparatively less compared to SW and PPG.

For bathroom paints, I don't think there's any need for semi-gloss. Even a good quality eggshell is totally fine, actually. I've found I think the best bathroom paint to be Benjamin Moore's Aura Bath and Spa, which is actually matte. If you got money, use it. Otherwise Zinsser's Permawhite is also a really good paint, very very mold resistant. Zinsser's Mold Killing Primer is also really good. Zinsser Permawhite is cheap. But in practicality, my experience is as long as you have a good exhaust fan essentially any decent quality paint is fine (except cheap flats...) I'd actually recommend against oil priming in a bathroom, though, except spot priming for water damage or similar. Oils have a higher chance of molding, imo, because the mold finds the oil to be good food (similar to mold eating diesel fuel after a while) whereas in general latex paint isn't good mold food, your only food for mold would be the paper on the drywall. It's my experience as well if there's a certain mold spot coming back again and again, too, likely it's something like say, a pipe leak (for example, I had a spot by my towel rack that the paint kept bubbling again and again, when I finally demo'd it, I found out the connection between my toilet vent pipes was loose and the condensation would go to the wall...)

Oh, lastly, I think the combination of brush and roller or sprayer might make a bigger difference overall than paint for how the finished product looks. If you got $60 a gallon paint and applied it with a cheapo brush and roller from the dollar store, it's gonna look like garbage, but if you got $20 a gallon paint and a $5-6 good quality microfiber roller, and a nice $15 brush like a Wooster Silver Tip, it'll look great. All too often at HD/Lowes I'd see someone buying their most expensive paint and a cheapo brush and it makes me sad, it's like porcelain tile and Custom Blend, basically. Some covers are absolutely amazing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtipAAnCY20 This is a Linzer/Arroworthy 9/16" cover and with a 9" cover you can roll a whole sheet of drywall in one dip, and the video isn't exaggerating. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl6VLeUmMJA This is what a good brush can do, too. Worth the cash, even if you're only painting once a year.
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Unread 01-15-2019, 04:45 AM   #15
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Interesting, thanks for the info, Joe.
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