Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 07-08-2006, 04:49 PM   #1
kbrown
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 8
leveling large dip in basement floor

Hello all,
Here's my situation. I am planning on laying a floating laminate floor in a 12x16' room in my basement, problem is that there is a "dip" that runs the entire 16' length of the room and is almost 2" deep in the center and curves up the entire 12'width of the room.It is a below grade concrete slab covered in the good old vinyl absbestos tile.I pulled up some of the tile in the center to check for a drain but found none.
My questions are 1: can I possibly level this "belly" without the aid of a concrete truck?
2: if so will I have to remove all the old absbestos tile and deal with the dreaded cutback removal or is there any product/solution to go over it to save the time and agony?
I've read so many conflicting opinions I don't know what to do and you guys seem to be the pros. Someone told me to try leveling with shingles and luan overtop?? Or just pour good old concrete over the mess. I've seen slc products that will go over vinyl but for a 2" pour? Should I give up and just lay some carpet. Thanks in advance for your advice.
Keith
kbrown is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 07-08-2006, 05:28 PM   #2
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 14,994
Some slc configurations can go that thick. You'd want to remove the tile first, though. To save on the expensive material, you could use some pea gravel in the deepest areas. SLC should be adhered to the concrete, the deck mud if done in a thick enough layer, doesn't have to (you could leave the tile with deck mud, but not with slc). Deck mud would also work, but doesn't taper to a thin edge. You could do the middle of this with deck mud and then slc the edges to a tapered edge, or if you can stand the height, use deck mud over the entire surface.
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-08-2006, 08:11 PM   #3
bobturner
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 180
If the tiles are 9", and the glue is black,, you might want to check for asbestos.
bobturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-08-2006, 10:27 PM   #4
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 95,717
Welcome, Keith.

What Jim said.

That's a lotta dip in a concrete floor, though. You have any idea how thick the field is in that slab?

You've been cautioned about using wood-laminate flooring in below-grade applications?

You ever checked for moisture migration through that slab? 'Specially in whatever is your wet season?

But I think the mud bed is the most realistic solution for your leveling. The deep part is gonna be deeper than recommended without reinforcement mid-depth if you make it deep enough at the edges, but it's still what I'd use. Maybe we can get one of the real mud guys to say just how they'd approach the dramatically different depths.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2006, 08:42 AM   #5
kbrown
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 8
Thanks for the quick response!
Jim & Cx, the deck mud sounds like a good option but I'm not too familiar with it.
I assume there is a minimum thickness for it to work and you say I can put it directly over the old tile? Would I use pea gravel in the deep spot and add the mud over it? If I use mud /pea hravel for the deep spot and slc to even it out the tile has to come up or is there a primer to put over the tile for the slc to bond to? Height is an issue so mudding the entire thing may not work.
I think I may end up pulling up the old tile(unless Im told otherwise) which I'm almost certain contains absbestos. Wetting it down,respirator and sealing off the area and I should be ok......right?
Im I correct in thinking the deck mud doesn't adhere to the surface below but forms an independent layer on top? Since it is a floating floor I assume the adhesion of whatever I use to level to the slab isn't as critical.
Cx,
I'm aware of the issue with wood below grade but thought laminate was ok?
My basement is dry and passed the old foil test after a week. Im not certain of the slab thickness but I think it's 3 or 4 inches. I have no idea why the dip is so big, maybe poor compaction before the pour. Would I have to use some type of mesh reinforcement with the mud?
So far my plan of attack:
1)remove old tile and cutback(if absolutley necessary)
2)mud or gravel the deep spot
3)slc to level the rest
I know I've got alot of questions and assumptions(we all know where that can get you) sorry for the long post but I definitly want to do it right and only once! thank you all for your help.
Keith
kbrown is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2006, 03:06 PM   #6
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 14,994
Deck mud is sort of like working with wet beach sand...it is mostly sand with a little cement in it. Mix it up, slap it down, pack it a little, then use a large straightedge to screed it flat. There's info in the "liberry" and John's books cover it in more detail. The deck mud needs to be thick enough to support itself, the slc needs to bond to the substrate beneath it. Depending on the thickness, you might need reinforcement (steel mesh). That is covered in the info and books. The key here is getting level reference boards that you can use to run your screed over. Taking the time to get that correct, and the rest is grunt work: mixing, humping, dumping, and leveling.
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2006, 03:56 PM   #7
flatfloor
"da Leveler"
 
flatfloor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,280
I may be wrong but I think a SLC would pull right off deck mud. Since the mud is mostly sand there is nothing for it to grab.

You have 192 SF to fill at an average depth of 1". That's about 65 bags of SLC, addition of pea gravel will reduce that quantity by about 25%. Figure Custom Levelquik at about $26 per bag plus maybe 2 gallons of primer. You would have to remove the tile and glue. The pour could be done in two lifts.

When was the tile installed, any idea? If it is VAT the wet scrape method works. No chemical removal, they leave a residue.

I'm not saying this is the way to go, just trying to give you a cost to compare.
__________________
Jim Buckley

This is as bad as it can get, but don't count on it.



Tile Calculator
New Here? Read this!
flatfloor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2006, 04:05 PM   #8
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 14,994
slc like thinset should bond fine to deckmud - my unprofessional opinion. Lots of pores for it to attach to.
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2006, 06:40 PM   #9
flatfloor
"da Leveler"
 
flatfloor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,280
Jim, I used the wrong words. The problem isn't bonding, the problem is debonding. Since the tensile strength of the SLC will be much higher than the deck mud it will actually pull the deck mud apart as it cures.
__________________
Jim Buckley

This is as bad as it can get, but don't count on it.



Tile Calculator
New Here? Read this!
flatfloor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2006, 06:47 PM   #10
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 14,994
That makes sense...thinset is less agressive I think.
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-09-2006, 06:58 PM   #11
flatfloor
"da Leveler"
 
flatfloor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,280
I don't know, worth checking product data sheets though.
__________________
Jim Buckley

This is as bad as it can get, but don't count on it.



Tile Calculator
New Here? Read this!
flatfloor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-11-2006, 06:06 PM   #12
kbrown
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 8
So it looks like slc over deck mud may not be a good idea and since I don't want to lose any more height I cant use just mud because it has to be a certain thickness?Now I'm really unsure but still better off before I came here.
Flatfloor: I'm pretty sure the tile are vat, the house was built in 1957 and they have that black and white swirly pattern which I matched on the Armstrong website(9x9').Going by their info they are VAT of the '57 vintage. As far as 65 bags of slc, thats really breaking the bank but I suspected I would need alot.You say adding pea gravel would reduce 25%, possibly more?
Could I just pour good old concrete/gravel to get it semi level and top it with the slc? In my limited experience with concrete it seems to stick to just about anything, even what you don't want it to. Would the cutback still need to be removed with this method?It's the part of the job I'm least excited about
One way or another with the wisdom of this forum and my determination
it will be done!!
Keith
kbrown is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-11-2006, 06:24 PM   #13
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 14,994
Call one of the manufacturers and ask about slc over deck mud. Depending on the quality of your deck mud, you may not need any over the deckmud, only up to it. Read the installation instructions on say Custom's website. Or check out Ardex. If the manufacturer will allow it, it should be fine. Deck mud needs like 1.25" thickness to stand alone, so you'd have to stop it at that point.
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-11-2006, 06:37 PM   #14
1Eric
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Roanoke VA
Posts: 402
The slc over deck mud won't work. I tried it over commercial grout once and it did not stick. The deck mud is a little more porous than that so I am pretty sure it wont "stick". Concrete will be brittle at that thin of a float and won't go to a feather edge. Floating floor, hmm. Throw some masons sand down there screed it out and work off a sheet of plywood so you don't create hollow spots. JUST KIDDING, TOO MUCH MOISTURE DO NOT DO THAT. I think the pea gravel and slc is your best bet .
__________________
Eric
I know of no more encouraging fact than the unquestionable ability of man to elevate his life by conscious endeavor. Henry David Thoreau
1Eric is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-11-2006, 06:49 PM   #15
flatfloor
"da Leveler"
 
flatfloor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,280
Quote:
You say adding pea gravel would reduce 25%, possibly more?
Nope, I'm pushing the envelope at that. Sorry.

Try the Mfrs like Jim suggested but I doubt it. Make sure you give them your mix design (formula) for deck mud.
__________________
Jim Buckley

This is as bad as it can get, but don't count on it.



Tile Calculator
New Here? Read this!
flatfloor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:52 PM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC