Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 05-30-2011, 06:03 PM   #1
Lutherbel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Kansas City, MO.
Posts: 8
Epoxy grout/Spectralock question

Hi everyone,

I'm in the middle of a complete kitchen remodel. I'm having 16x24 porcelain tile installed on Thursday. I'm wanting to use an Epoxy grout for 1 big reason-

My mostly housebroken dog spends 100% of his un-housebroken time in my kitchen. He has a couple of accidents a week. Usually he saves these for 2 or 3am where they're not discovered for several hours ;-)

We had 12x12 ceramic tile in there previously with "normal" grout. The urine smell had penetrated the grout and it was AWFUL.

My question is this-is Spectralock or Prism (I think that was the name?) "real" epoxy grout? Meaning, is it waterproof or will we run into the same issues down the road. We're seriously considering making the kitchen a very "limited access" room for the dogs but I don't really want their food and water bowls in my dining room either ;-)

Any input would be appreciated!

Thanks!
__________________
melisa
Lutherbel is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 05-30-2011, 07:15 PM   #2
hbrothberg
Registered User
 
hbrothberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Woodbridge, CT
Posts: 748
SpectraLOCK ... and Dogs ....

Yes, SpectraLOCK is a "real" epoxy grout.

and ..

SpectraLOCK is specifically recommended for, and used on, the floors of veterinarian clinics.

We even have a special book, a Technical Design Manual, for Architects, Engineers, Builders & Owners regarding this subject. An eBook copy can be found here:

http://www.laticrete.com/contractors...n_manuals.aspx

Animal Health and Wellness Facilities Technical Design Manual

The goal of this manual is to provide the necessary information to help ensure a proper and long lasting tile installation in an animal health and wellness environment.

Henry
__________________
Henry Rothberg
hbrothberg@laticrete.com
www.laticrete.com
Office: (203) 393-0010 ext 202
Cell: (203) 988-1814

Full Disclosure: I am a 2nd generation Laticrete guy !
Follow my Blog: www.laticrete.blogspot.com
hbrothberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-30-2011, 07:25 PM   #3
Houston Remodeler
Pondering retirement daily

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Houston Remodeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 28,217
Melisa,

Henry is the one to know all about Spectralock, which is an excellent product. I would add - make sure you allow proper curing time before the first time your dog "tests" the floor....
__________________
Paul1

For when DIY isn't such a good idea...
Houston TX area Kitchen & Bath Remodeling


http://CabotAndRowe.com
Houston Remodeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-30-2011, 07:33 PM   #4
Lutherbel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Kansas City, MO.
Posts: 8
Thanks so much for the advice-

It is such a disgusting problem to have but I guess it is what it is....

I love that stupid dog..... (mostly).

One more question about it-

The tile we've chosen has a bit of a texture to it-will this complicate floating the grout and clean up of the tiles? I've got a call into my installer to gauge his level of experience/comfort with epoxy grout....

Also, I'm assuming that this grout allows for a minimum amount of "flex". We've done everything we possibly can to properly prep our floor and believe we're in decent shape but just wanted to throw that question out there as well.

Thanks so much for the responses!
__________________
melisa
Lutherbel is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-30-2011, 07:36 PM   #5
Houston Remodeler
Pondering retirement daily

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Houston Remodeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 28,217
Melisa,

What are you referring to when you say "flex"?
__________________
Paul1

For when DIY isn't such a good idea...
Houston TX area Kitchen & Bath Remodeling


http://CabotAndRowe.com
Houston Remodeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-30-2011, 08:13 PM   #6
custombuilt
Tile and remodeling contractor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Quincy, IL
Posts: 2,794
Yeah melissa I am with Paul, what do you mean by flex? the tiles themselves won't handle much "flex" What is your subfloor and underlayment you are putting this over. No grout will make up for subfloor issues and movement.
__________________
---------------------------------------------------
Jason W.

Superior Construction
Custom Interior and Exterior remodeling experts
Quincy, IL
custombuilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-30-2011, 08:33 PM   #7
Lutherbel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Kansas City, MO.
Posts: 8
Well.......I was hoping not to open that can of worms but here goes ;-) This is gonna be a VERY long post, my apologies in advance.

Kitchen is 135sq ft. 100 year old house.

When I bought the house there was some really horrific linoleum in the kitchen. We ripped that out and did tile ourselves (12x12 ceramic). It wasn't our first tile job but certainly the largest-our previous one was in the neighborhood of 25sq ft.

We did very little subfloor prep the first time-was in pretty good condition minus some water damage in front of the sink. We removed that section of the subfloor and replaced it with 3/4" plywood (as best as memory serves). This section was/is 16"x26". We screwed down, but did NOT thinset down, 1/4" hardibacker and screwed it in according to the instructions.

Tile looked great for about 2 years. Then we noticed some cracks/loose tile. It was pretty confined to in front of the sink (where we had installed the plywood). There was one loose tile elsewhere in the kitchen but we're pretty sure that was due to not getting one of the hardibacker screws all the way in. My husband and I were discussing this earlier (ok, all day) and we think that we had maybe 4 or 5 tiles with issues over the entire kitchen.

Aside from the cracked/loose tile, we had all kinds of grout issues. We used the cheapest HD grout you can buy. We did not float it. Rather, and stupidly probably, we used a piping bag technique to put the grout in. We tried to push it down and smooth it with our fingers.

The grout didn't make it 2 years. Half of the kitchen looked okay, the other half was just crumbly, cracking, etc. The dog urine situation just made this worse as I'm sure you can imagine. We sealed it 2x when we first installed it but then got lazy about resealing-plus you can't really seal it when it is a crumbly mess.

That's the background. Here's where we're at today. Total kitchen gut and remodel. Tore all of the tile/hardibacker out and got back to subfloor. The first thing we immediately noticed was our 16x36" plywood piece was really loose. I don't think we got it really screwed into the joists below very well the first time around. That would explain a lot of the cracked tile issues. We nailed AND screwed the hell out of it today. There is no virtually no movement-even when one of us is jumping on it.

In addition, it was suggested to us by our tile installer that part of the original issue with cracking, etc may have been exacerbated by the fact that our floor joists are 2x8's due to the age of the house and that would allow more "flex" in the subfloor as a whole. That made decent sense to me although I don't think that is the majority of our issue as 90% of the tile was okay and I believe the grout issues were largely due to our method of installment. As a precaution we went ahead (under the supervision of somebody who knows more than us) and did some reinforcement of the joists from below in the form of screwing a 4x4 into the joists and adding some adjustable support beams. We didn't jack the floor up, just made it very snug to minimize any possible vertical movement. It removed a squeeky spot in the floor (where there wasn't any cracking) so I think we did something good.

In the original install we didn't use thinset or grout that had any sort of silicone/latex additives so there was zero "give". That's what I meant by "flex". I do recognize the importance of a good level and sturdy subfloor and am not trying to compensate for major problems, probably (hopefully) just overly concerned given the past history with tile on this floor.

The installation plan at this point is to use 1/2" hardibacker-both screwed AND thinset to the subfloor. Something with latex (Superflex?) or the like. We will also use this to adhere the tile. Grout with Epoxy.

I'm sure that is way too much info but better safe than sorry. Again, we don't have major subfloor issues, just stuff that is typical in old houses. I had several people out to give estimates on tile installation-nobody thought we had anything significant going on with the subfloor. I'm sure I'm being overly anxious, just cant stand the thought of going through this again (especially with all the $$$ and other stuff we're doing in terms of cabinets, etc) and running into the same issues.

Does that make any sense?
__________________
melisa
Lutherbel is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-30-2011, 08:38 PM   #8
Houston Remodeler
Pondering retirement daily

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Houston Remodeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 28,217
Melisa,

The first thing we need to do is use the handy dandy Deflecto-meter which is linked in the dark blue bar above, under the words "Members List"

Fill in the measurements as per your kitchen and let us know if the joists will support tile. After that we can discuss plywood.
__________________
Paul1

For when DIY isn't such a good idea...
Houston TX area Kitchen & Bath Remodeling


http://CabotAndRowe.com
Houston Remodeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-30-2011, 08:48 PM   #9
Lutherbel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Kansas City, MO.
Posts: 8
Hi Paul,

I've been there already but have a question so I'll try to make this simple (my terminology is probably suspect at best)

I understand everything that they're asking with the possibly exception of joist spacing at the center-

We've got 2x8's that are in pretty good condition-no clue as to species. From the foundation to the I beam (basically my kitchen) is between 10-10.5ft. As far as joist spacing....it varies between 12-20". When you say "center" I'm assuming you mean the joist placed in the center of my kitchen, correct? If that is true, it is 12-13" on either side of the center joist to the adjacent one.

If all of that is correct I come out okay according to that calculator....

My only other area of concern would be that several of the joists have some wires/plumbing drilled through them which, I'm sure, weakens them to some undetermined degree. Would pics help?

Thanks so much for your assistance btw....
__________________
melisa
Lutherbel is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-30-2011, 08:54 PM   #10
Houston Remodeler
Pondering retirement daily

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Houston Remodeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 28,217
Can you go into the space below and take a picture of the joists?
__________________
Paul1

For when DIY isn't such a good idea...
Houston TX area Kitchen & Bath Remodeling


http://CabotAndRowe.com
Houston Remodeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-30-2011, 09:19 PM   #11
Lutherbel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Kansas City, MO.
Posts: 8
Hi Paul,

I couldn't upload but created a Flickr account for them. Please see the link-

Photos of both the subfloor (tongue and groove) as well as joists.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63498795@N05/
__________________
melisa
Lutherbel is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2011, 06:40 AM   #12
bbcamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 30,274
Quote:
When you say "center" I'm assuming you mean the joist placed in the center of my kitchen, correct? If that is true, it is 12-13" on either side of the center joist to the adjacent one.
No, what "on-center" means is "from the center of one joist to the center of the next joist." You said the joists range from 12 to 20 inches apart. Use 20 inches in the deflecto to see if that joist is OK. If so, the rest are, too. If not, use the next larger joist spacing to see if it is OK. However, unless your wood is of a very non-typical species for structral framing, they should be OK.

Holes for plumbing and wiring should be in the centerline of the joist. If they are, the effect is negligible. If they are near the top or bottom of the joist, the effect can be quite pronounced.

The I-beam kinda says there was some engineering done on this house, so the issue becomes one of workmanship. All the joists need to be well fastened to, or supported by, the supporting structure so no movement is possible. The subfloor must also be well fastened to the joists. Screws or ring-shanked nails are a must; construction adhesive would be very helpful, too.
bbcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2011, 07:39 AM   #13
Lutherbel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Kansas City, MO.
Posts: 8
Hmmmm. The highest center number I can enter and be okay is 16. Like I said previously, we span 12-20ish. But we've added some support beams from the garage floor to the bottom of the joists to make them very snug. I hope that is enough...
__________________
melisa
Lutherbel is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2011, 12:02 PM   #14
Lutherbel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Kansas City, MO.
Posts: 8
Final solution

So, I had another tile guy out this morning. I think he was by far the most knowledgeable. He took a look at my joists downstairs and thought that our added support beams would be sufficient for deflection. Additionally, he strongly recommended adding 3/4" plywood (staggered) to our existing subfloor. Screwed in. Leveler on top of that in 2 places. Then 1/4" hardibacker. Thinset and screwed. From there we tile. Waiting on his actual bid but hoping it is within reason as I would be very comfortable with him doing the work. It doesn't sound like we'll know until tomorrow but I've got my fingers crossed it isn't outrageous. If it is we'll do the plywood ourselves and go from there, I guess....

Does it sound like we're on the right path?
__________________
melisa
Lutherbel is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2011, 12:34 PM   #15
bbcamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 30,274
Yes, it does, Melisa.
bbcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mapei Epoxy or Spectralock Epoxy Grout? scorleo Tile Forum/Advice Board 3 06-04-2006 08:37 AM
Laticrete SpectraLOCK epoxy grout question scottv Tile Forum/Advice Board 3 02-19-2006 10:37 PM
Spectralock Epoxy Grout SCHOONER Tile Forum/Advice Board 6 07-08-2005 03:55 PM
Just used SpectraLock Epoxy Grout... edbreyer Tile Forum/Advice Board 5 03-02-2005 09:45 AM
Spectralock vs Epoxy grout ChasR Professionals' Hangout 9 11-18-2003 10:05 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:03 PM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC