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Unread 11-26-2022, 04:24 PM   #31
TileMT
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Quote:
but if you do not extend the tile over the band, how would you finish the band? As well, if the tile stops at the edge of the glass there won't be any room for the clips to hold the glass.
Can you not paint over kerdi-band? With regards to clips, I was thinking of using the Schluter deco-sg profile which is a channel and can also terminate a course of tile.

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The pony wall cap should have the water proofing covering the width of the tile (cap) backer, and the cap should be sloped towards the drain.
Good reminder on sloping the cap. Do you typically achieve this through creative thinset, or should i use wooden shims when constructing the pony wall to create a sloped substrate? I could basically stack a row of shims all along the pony wall that gets covered in kerdiboard.
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Unread 11-26-2022, 05:04 PM   #32
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I suppose you can paint over Kerdi band, but the resulting texture isn't likely to be to your, well, liking. You could probably cover it in drywall compound, prime it, then paint it, but I think it will be a noticeable and abrupt change in elevation between the drywall and the covered Kerdi due to the thickness of the mortar under the Kerdi, the Kerdi itself, and however thick the compound needs to be to cover the Kerdi and feather the seam out onto the drywall. Depending on lighting, it might be very noticeable.

I created the slope for my pony wall during the framing stage, no shims. As it sounds like your pony wall has not yet been built it seems you could do the same.
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Unread 11-27-2022, 11:47 AM   #33
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Hmm, won't capillary action have the ability for thinset to pull water outside of the shower? So if I tile over the drywall/kerdiband transition, won't it expose drywall to moisture? Sorry if this is a dumb question, just trying to understand if I should worry about that.
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Unread 11-27-2022, 12:57 PM   #34
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A valid question, but capillary action hasn't been an issue for mine. Not yet anyway.

In the photo below the shower side of the pony wall is clad with water proof foam board, as is the vertical end. The top is Hardie, and the bathroom side is drywall. Water proof sheet membrane covers the top to the bathroom side edge of the Hardie and extends down onto the face of the foam board, and sheet membrane takes care of the vertical shower side corner. A pre-formed Kerdi corner handles that top corner on the shower side. Both the horizontal and vertical soap stone caps were set with mortar, and the joint between the tile and the bottom edge of caps were caulked with 100% silicone, as were the rest of the changes of plane joints. A small piece of wood trim hides the cut edge of the drywall where it abuts the caps on the bathroom side.

The horizontal cap sees a lot of water. If there is water getting into the mortar it hasn't presented in the wood trim or the drywall.
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Unread 11-28-2022, 02:53 PM   #35
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Thanks for the awesome in-progress photos! Couple questions:

1: Is that a pre-formed inside corner piece you're using for the outside corner, just on "inside out"? I was actually wondering about that exact thing, and found some conflicting info online about whether there was a different material on each side of the kerdi-band that prevented it. Would be stoked if I can do that.

2. In a previous post you mentioned you created the inward-slope for the top-cap of pony wall during the framing stage without shims. Do you mind explaining how you accomplished that? Did you use a hand planer to re-face the top edge of the 2x4? Did you cut the vertical studs at a slight angle so the mounting-face was not level?

3. Thanks for the tips on soap-stone, I'm going to check out that material for sure. I can see a white-joint between the top cap and the vertical cap, is this joint just silicon'd?

4. Is there a reason the top soap-stone cap couldn't have extended another 1/2 inch to cover the butt-joint with the dry-wall, or would this be undesirable for water-proofing purposes? Or I guess even if this was done, the joint would need to be covered somehow? To be honest, the wood trim is invisible in your final photo, is it painted the same color as drywall?

5. I had planned to use kerdiboard for the top and vertical run of pony-wall, but since it will basically need to be practically entirely covered in kerdi-band anyway to cover the screw-holes and the change in plane from the top -> inside the shower, I'm wondering if it makes more sense to just make the pony wall caps cement-board and just kerdi-sheet membrane to accomplish the wrap around. Does kerdi sheet membrane keep a tight corner like kerdiband? It seems like this way I wouldn't have to patch any screw-holes.
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Unread 11-28-2022, 04:01 PM   #36
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Very welcome.

1) Yup. The preformed corners have the all important fleece both inside and outside.

2) Exactly, simply cut the two vertical end studs at a slight angle. You don't need much. I used construction screws to assemble the pony wall. Keep in mind that, even with the top cap properly sloped don't expect that all the water will run off. Surface tension means that some will remain.

3) Soap stone has some attractive properties, one being it is very dense and doesn't absorb water. It is fairly soft so is easy to cut. But being soft means it will scratch easily. And mine, being almost black, shows e v e r y t h i n g that's on it. The joint you see is actually a light gray to match the rest of the silicone. It would have been more attractive in black, but couldn't figure out how to do it where the black silicone met the light gray silicone without A) making a mess or B) compromising the seal.

4) No reason at all, just a design choice. I installed the drywall before the top cap. After the top cap was installed I had a too much of a gap between the cap and the drywall to simply caulk it and have it look nice. If you don't want to fuss with a trim piece you could install the caps before the drywall and then carefully cut the drywall to fit. But if you do that then taping and mudding the inside corner of the pony wall cleanly becomes more difficult because then the cap is in the way. And yeah, the trim is painted the same color as the drywall. See pic below before trim pieces. The color of the drywall is actually a light gray - funny how lighting changes it.

5) No reason you couldn't use a cement or fiber board as a backer for the caps. I used Hardie (fiber) board for the top of mine. I just find cement board to crumbly for my OCD racked brain. Just a preference, and I had some left over from the floor. I don't have any experience with Kerdi band or sheet, but the two I do have a little experience with suggests that none of them take and hold a sharp crease. I've wondered if ironing them might do the trick.

Since you're in the planning stage for your pony wall you might consider sizing it so you can incorporate a niche. I'm not especially proud of mine, a rather fussy/disjointed tile layout but at least it, and the bottles of shampoo and potions, are invisible from outside the shower.
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Unread 11-29-2022, 06:46 PM   #37
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Quote:
Soap stone has some attractive properties, one being it is very dense and doesn't absorb water. It is fairly soft so is easy to cut.
Interesting, did you cut these pieces yourself? Do you mind explaining the construction/installation of your corner benches? They look nice and I'm thinking about copying them. I was interested what was below the soapstone.

Quote:
Since you're in the planning stage for your pony wall you might consider sizing it so you can incorporate a niche. I'm not especially proud of mine, a rather fussy/disjointed tile layout but at least it, and the bottles of shampoo and potions, are invisible from outside the shower.
Your niche looks great! However, I think I've gotten to the point of the planning stage where I'm getting a little overwhelmed with the amount of detail involved in all of the trim, tile layout planning, etc, so I'm thinking about reducing complexity where I can, so I think I'll be forgoing a niche in favor of some simple corner shelves, I think the schluter ones actually look pretty good.

Another thing that would make that difficult is I'm thinking I'll be using the pony wall to put the shower controls, so it can be turned on without stepping in the shower. With the plumbing already running through the pony wall it might be difficult to also fit a niche. Photo attached so this makes sense. Couple additional questions:

1) When running plumbing through a wall like this, does it make sense to bring water supply up to the mixing valve, then do a 180 back down below the floor, then come up into again into the fixture wall? Or go up to the mixing valve, then 90 degrees through holes drilled into the vertical studs, 90-degree into the fixture wall?

2) On a related note, I was thinking it would be pretty neat if I had a way to make the bathroom-side of the pony wall a removeable panel, so I could access plumbing if needed. Any clever ideas to achieve this with wooden trim or something? Am I ridiculous for considering it?

3) I've been trying to figure out rough-in location for lights and ceiling fan. The internet is surprisingly divided on whether the fan should be in the shower, or just outside of it. The engineer in me wants to put it right in the shower to most effectively vent moisture, but wonders if it would make it too drafty. Any advice on this? Current thinking is marked in the photo as well.

Thanks again
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Unread 11-30-2022, 09:36 AM   #38
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I had the stone fabricator came out to measure for the vanity tops, the top of the seat between the vanities, and the two corner benches. I provided them the measurements and edge finishing requirements for the two caps on the pony wall, the two caps for the bump out that accommodates the wall hung toilet, and the niche shelf. I had them cut the caps long and I trimmed those to size, and cut the notches for the shelf.

The benches are from Better Bench. Basically a stainless steel frame which is attached to the wall with screws (you'll want blocking in the wall) and filled with deck mud. The deck mud is then covered with sheet membrane/bands/pre-formed corners to seal it to the foam board walls. The soap stone is set in thinset mortar. The one bench helps to stiffen up the pony wall. Setting the caps with mortar will stiffen it more. If you intend to hinge a door off the pony wall and glass you might consider making the pony wall tall enough so you can get two hinges on it, leaving only one on the glass. As well, if you are hinging the door on the glass panel I should think mechanical clips anchoring the panel to the wall will be required; that door will be pulling on the panel.

Can't tell the length and width of the shower from here but it looks as though you could put the shower valve near the end of the long wall and operate it without getting wet. An electronic valve might be another option, allowing you to put the controller(s) wherever you want, but you'd need an access panel for it, and is certainly more expensive.

1) Going through the floor will probably be easier. Turning 90* through studs/with studs in the way might be a challenge.

2) Not likely necessary, IMO. If the rough in plumbing is done correctly none of the fittings will leak and will last for decades. The valve itself can be serviced from the front.

3) With the top of the shower open I don't think it's going to matter much if you place the fan just outside of the glass. And there may be some advantage to having it slightly closer to the toilet. Placing it within the perimeter of the glass probably won't matter, either, as it will be drawing air up and over the glass, with probably an unmeasurable amount being drawn through the small gap below the glass door.
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Unread 11-30-2022, 12:32 PM   #39
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Phil, you've gotten some great responses here, but I'll add my thoughts.

On the pony wall stabilization, consider (prepping for and) using a Simpson HD or HDU stiffener. If you can place a firmly-anchored threaded bolt in the floor, and if you use both liquid nails and small lags against the vertical framing, you'll be shocked at the improvement.

I'd eliminate any shower door I could live without, after fifty years of fighting them. If the spray pointing toward the doorway is a concern, maybe consider moving the shower head to the other end, coming out of the wall at the corner with a nice exposed pipe or mounting it to the glass. I've seen a blend of the two work, with the main head on the glass and the handheld sprayer on the wall. You can even keep the piping off of the glass with an extended arm on the head. I can find pics if you want. Search "exposed shower plumbing on glass wall", and other combinations of wording. Putting the controls in the pony wall is a great idea.

Either way, I'd waterproof the area just outside the door area, just to be safe.
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Unread 11-30-2022, 01:07 PM   #40
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@Dan

Quote:
I had them cut the caps long and I trimmed those to size, and cut the notches for the shelf.
Very cool, any finishing needed to be done on cut-ends, or were you able to hide them in the joints?

Quote:
The benches are from Better Bench. Basically a stainless steel frame which is attached to the wall with screws (you'll want blocking in the wall) and filled with deck mud. The deck mud is then covered with sheet membrane/bands/pre-formed corners to seal it to the foam board walls.
Nice, sounds pretty easy. One of these? I only ask because they say they're an aluminum alloy, and specifically that you don't need any additional membranes. Is the membrane just for extra peace of mind? It seems like it wouldn't be that hard to kerdi-band and kerdi-corner it to the wall though, so it definitely seems like a good idea. Is it easier to mount flush with the bottom grout joint like you did, with the notch on the top, vs the reverse, with the notch hidden below it? I guess if the top needs to be sloped to the drain, having a notch on top is unavoidable?

Quote:
If you intend to hinge a door off the pony wall and glass you might consider making the pony wall tall enough so you can get two hinges on it, leaving only one on the glass. As well, if you are hinging the door on the glass panel I should think mechanical clips anchoring the panel to the wall will be required; that door will be pulling on the panel.
Good idea, definitely planning on two-hinges in the pony wall, thinking the 3.5-4 foot high range should be enough.

Quote:
Can't tell the length and width of the shower from here but it looks as though you could put the shower valve near the end of the long wall and operate it without getting wet.
The long wall is an exterior wall, so I'm trying to avoid running plumbing through it if possible. Shower dimensions are 4x6'

@John:

Quote:
On the pony wall stabilization, consider (prepping for and) using a Simpson HD or HDU stiffener. If you can place a firmly-anchored threaded bolt in the floor, and if you use both liquid nails and small lags against the vertical framing, you'll be shocked at the improvement.
So this bathroom is basically a total rebuild from the floor joists on up. Because of this, my current thinking is to follow roughly this procedure to extend the vertical pony-wall studs into the crawl space and firmly anchor them to the joists/blocking below (photo below). How do you think this would compare using the Simpson HD stiffeners? I'm happy to combine methods if it would be more bomb-proof. I'm also hopening adding a corner bench like Dan posted will help stiffen even more.


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I'd eliminate any shower door I could live without, after fifty years of fighting them.
I will continue to nudge the SO about this. If it was just me I'd omit the shower door and leave configuration as-is. There will be ditra mat outside the shower and I'll definitely be connecting up with kerdiband so it will be waterproof.

Thanks again for the help all, great tips!
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Unread 12-01-2022, 08:23 AM   #41
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Quote:
So this bathroom is basically a total rebuild from the floor joists on up. Because of this, my current thinking is to follow roughly this procedure to extend the vertical pony-wall studs into the crawl space and firmly anchor them to the joists/blocking below (photo below). How do you think this would compare using the Simpson HD stiffeners? I'm happy to combine methods if it would be more bomb-proof. I'm also hopening adding a corner bench like Dan posted will help stiffen even more.
Hmmm. First, I see a pressure-treated 6" x 6" in that drawing. I'd eliminate that, because PT lumber is typically milled from stuff that twists later, or has a higher risk of twisting than kiln-dried framing material. I'd double the 2x6's, if you want that extra strength at that location.

If the pony wall is to be framed with nominal 6" framing, that's obviously better than 2x4's regarding rigidity. Your proposed approach eliminates a solid bottom plate, which reduces the liklihood that the Simpson brace will help much. Remember that for wall of that size, stabilizing the end is probably 95% of what's needed to firm it up. It's true that placing "skins" and tile will make a big difference, but that far end is the biggie. It's often a combination of ideas, applied together, that result in the best outcome. One ingrediant is always a lot of heavy duty liquid nails!

Note: I've had my local steel guy make some imaginative application-specific, self-designed braces to keep a pony wall from moving.

What's the relationship between the proposed pony wall and the joists below? Will the joists be parallel or perpendicular to the line of 2x6's extending into the crawl space? If parallel, how close are the framed wall faces to the joist on each side? If perpendicular, how far off of a joist will the wall end fall? Those answers will impact how you frame and block for the wall. If you let me/us know, I/we will be glad to further confuse you with input!

And, please, do all of your under-floor framing before you lay tile. Not to treat you like you can't recognize the proper order of things, but banging blocking into position is best done first!
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Unread 12-01-2022, 12:51 PM   #42
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Yup, all the cut ends are hidden. I just had to give the fabricator very detailed instructions on which edges on each of the 10 total pieces needed to be finished.

I could be wrong about the BB's being fashioned using stainless steel. Regardless, they aren't going to rust. Although they are designed to be filled with porous deck mud so that any water that gets into them drains out, I didn't want any water getting into them, or possibly seeping in between the metal frame and the water proof wall board, so covered them with membrane and band. I mounted them so the finished height would be about 18" from the finished floor, - normal chair height. The notching for the tile just turned out that way due to how I laid out the tile. When it came time to fill them I just couldn't get the mud to stick on the front so I did employ the advice of our own CX and affixed expanded metal lath to the front using sheet metal screws and quite a bit of my own blood.

Gotcha - didn't realize the long wall is exterior.

Since you have access from below I should think a single 2X6 at only 4' in effective length, or even double 2X4's, solidly glued/screwed/bolted to the joist below, will be more than sufficient. If the joists are perpendicular to the pony wall you might consider screwing a 2X4 to the bottom of joists - spanning multiple, to prevent those from twisting. My pony wall is just 2X4's, with the bottom plate screwed into 2 joists below through the subfloor. Between the bench and the caps it doesn't move, but of course it doesn't have a heavy glass door swinging on it.

If you are concerned about the exhaust fan causing the shower to be drafty for Mrs. Sean I think she's definitely going to want a door. Mine is doorless, and while I don't regret it the decision at all, once the warm water stops I'm rather glad the towels are close at hand.
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Unread 12-04-2022, 01:17 PM   #43
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@John

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Hmmm. First, I see a pressure-treated 6" x 6" in that drawing. I'd eliminate that, because PT lumber is typically milled from stuff that twists later, or has a higher risk of twisting than kiln-dried framing material. I'd double the 2x6's, if you want that extra strength at that location. If the pony wall is to be framed with nominal 6" framing, that's obviously better than 2x4's regarding rigidity.

What's the relationship between the proposed pony wall and the joists below? Will the joists be parallel or perpendicular to the line of 2x6's extending into the crawl space? If parallel, how close are the framed wall faces to the joist on each side? If perpendicular, how far off of a joist will the wall end fall? Those answers will impact how you frame and block for the wall. If you let me/us know, I/we will be glad to further confuse you with input!
I think maybe the photo I posted wasn't clear on perspective, it is from inside the crawlspace the members going from foreground to background (including the 6x6) are floor joists. They are about 12'' on center. It is very non-standard framing down there. The house was built in rural montana I think with a hearty dose of "use what lumber we have lying around". Part of my project is going to be replacing several joists with water damage, beefing up the joists with intermediate beams, etc, to meet deflection requirements.

The joists do run perpendicular to the pony wall, which I was intending to build out of 2x4s. Because I'll be replacing several joists, I can orient it so that there is a joist immediately adjacent to the outer-face of the final vertical stud of the pony wall to tie into. The wall is going to be roughtly 3.5 feet long and 3.5-4 feet high. Definitely interested in your thoughts on the best ways to block and frame. In particular in the video I posted at 2:30 he mentions a technique of adding additional blocking to support the liquid nails and structural screws, but I didn't quite follow.

Quote:
Your proposed approach eliminates a solid bottom plate, which reduces the liklihood that the Simpson brace will help much.
It is true that this approach eliminates a continuous bottom plate, but I was still thinking of having blocking above the subfloor between vertical studs, where a bottom plate would normally go. Do you think the Simpson braces would not help much since the bottom plate is not continuous? One challenge is that most of the Simpson HD's I've seen seem to be meant for anchoring into concrete or structural steel. Do you know of a product meant for interior applications?

Quote:
And, please, do all of your under-floor framing before you lay tile. Not to treat you like you can't recognize the proper order of things, but banging blocking into position is best done first!
I appreciate the reminder, but yes, I definitely plan to finish all framing, rough-ins, etc, above and below-floor, before doing any water-proofing or tiling.

@Dan,

Quote:
. When it came time to fill them I just couldn't get the mud to stick on the front so I did employ the advice of our own CX and affixed expanded metal lath to the front using sheet metal screws and quite a bit of my own blood.
Interesting, good to know. Once the metal lath was attached, the mud stuck better?
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Unread 12-04-2022, 10:22 PM   #44
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On another note, I busted out the wet saw today to make sure it was capable of doing what I needed to for 12x24'' tile (the only other floor I did was smaller tile).

I got some cheap-o tile from HD to practice on and practiced simple cuts, rip-cuts, and notches, and they all went fine.

I'm planning on doing the shower floor envelope-cut style, so I also practiced some diagonal cuts, which is where things went hairy. I was consistently having the narrow-side of a diagonal cut break off about 0.5-1 inches before the cut finished. I attached a photo showing a mock layout with the breakages visible. The second photo is one attempt where I cut all but the last 2 inches, then used an angle grinder with diamond blade to score the top of the last 1 inch, and then tried to complete the cut. It still broke

My wet-saw is definitely a DIY-grade ridgid, but the blade seems in decent shape, and I was getting clean rip cuts and notches, so I assume this is just due to tension/vibration against the blade? Are there any techniques that don't involve free-handing long cuts with an angle grinder? I feel like I don't have the skill for that.

Would a score-and-snap tile cutter work better for this type of cut? The tile I'm using is porecelain, and I've heard conflicting things about how effective they are on porcelain. This is probably my last major tile project, so I'd rather not buy a $500 tool, but if a $150 snap-cutter will make this problem go away I'd invest in it.

Thanks for the thoughts. I did try to use the search function, but didn't see much on this.
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Unread 12-05-2022, 11:46 AM   #45
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Does your saw have the capability to do plunge cuts? There some cuts where I make multiple passes say cutting 1/3 of the depth at a time and cut completely through the last inch or so before the final pass. Also, one side of the tile may be off the table a bit and as you start to finish the cut the weight of the tile breaks it.
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