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Unread 03-07-2021, 12:13 PM   #106
KarenA01
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I m trying to figure out what will likely need to be done for tiling the bathroom floor.

Currently there are 2 layers of tiles on the floor, and the top layer has been coming off and cracking. Originally I thought that might be because of an issue with the substate. That said looking at the area where the top tiles came off, maybe the issue is how they were installed. (I'm attaching a picture)

looking at the what is on the surface of the top layer , maybe the second layer was attached with mastic, which would be an obvious no-no on a bathroom floor. Does it look like mastic was used?

The lower layer is a 1X1 mosaic. I don't know for sure but I think it might original to the house.

The house was originally built in the early-mid 50's as a very small 2 bedroom ranch. If the 1X1 mosaic is the original floor, does that mean it likely was installed on a mud base?

If so what does it mean for putting down for new tile? Given the height restrictions, even if possible, installing the new thicker tile on top of 1X1 layer would not work.

I assume the 1x1 tiles and the (likely?) mud base (and what ever it is on top of?) would need to be removed. Does that mean that the (likely) plywood underneath the mud would need to be replaced?

BTW I bought and started reading the Tile Your World book to get a better handle on some of these things.

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Unread 03-07-2021, 04:51 PM   #107
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I keep asking all these questions because because of many thread here like this recent one:
https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin...d.php?t=130656

about contractors who really don't know what they are doing or just don't care.

So although we can't do most of the work ourselves being in our mid and late 60's, having some physical issues and never having done or even been exposed to such things before, I feel I need to learn as much as can about the details of how things should be done, to be able to choose a good contractor and to spot any issue that might occur if we choose the wrong one, before it can get too expensive.

We should both be fully vaccinated in 5 weeks so will be contacting contractors starting in about a month from now. (hopefully all the good ones are not booked into next year!!!)

Anyway my next question. As I previously mentioned the ceiling in the bathroom (most of the house) is 88" and I want the ceiling tiles on the tub/shower combo alcove because of that.

With the showerhead at the standard 80" it is awfully close to the ceiling and I know the ceiling gets wet now with splashing (as well the walls all the way to the ceiling).

I don't know what is under the ceiling tiles now. but in this situation what would be the best thing to have? Should there be a moisture barrier of some sort like for the walls?

Should the ceiling to be tiled in the shower area be greenboard, CBU or drywall with RedGuard or something else?

If it matters the ceiling joists are 18" on center and 2X6"... those are the actual measurements I made of the ceiling joists, NOT nominal dimensions.

Thanks
-Karen
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Unread 03-08-2021, 07:29 AM   #108
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Hi Karen,

IMO, it doesn't really matter at this point what the top layer of floor tile was adhered with to the bottom 1X1's, it all needs to come out. If there is a mud bed under the 1X1's you'll need to determine what kind of shape it's in after the tile is removed. If the mud bed is significantly cracked or otherwise compromised it, too, may need to come up. If the mud bed comes out you can then assess the plywood subfloor.

None of the above is really unique to your situation, it tends to be how remodeling goes. And it's rather difficult for a reputable contractor to give you a realistic quote until he/she knows what they're dealing with.

As far as the ceiling goes, clearly whatever tile is on it now will need to come down, and it's going to bring the rest of the ceiling with it, unless perhaps if the ceiling isn't drywall. If there is blown in insulation above that ceiling that's coming down, too, unless your contractor can get up there to shovel it out of the way (and then go back up there to re-place it).

You do not need green board, plain white drywall. You do need a vapor barrier. That can be plastic behind the drywall (if the if new insulation will be installed be certain its vapor barrier, if any, is defeated) or it can be a surface applied water proofing. Regardless of what is used be certain the drywall is well fastened. 18" OC for 1/2" drywall with tile stuck to it might be a little wide, so consider some 2X4's installed perpendicular to the joists at 16" OC, or use 5/8" drywall on the ceiling.
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Unread 03-08-2021, 10:06 AM   #109
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Hi Dan

Thank you very much for your reply.

Quote:
IMO, it doesn't really matter at this point what the top layer of floor tile was adhered with to the bottom 1X1's, it all needs to come out.
I realized that... I was just wondering if the reason the top layer of tile was coming off and cracking was the use of mastic (if it was mastic) , or if there might be a bigger issue underneath with the underlayment... But I guess it I just need to wait until the tile is up to know.

Quote:
And it's rather difficult for a reputable contractor to give you a realistic quote until he/she knows what they're dealing with.
I understand that. If there is a reason to suspect a deeper issue, I wanted to make the contractor aware of it up front before an estimate... The GC may not be a tile guy.

Quote:
As far as the ceiling goes, clearly whatever tile is on it now will need to come down, and it's going to bring the rest of the ceiling with it, unless perhaps if the ceiling isn't drywall.
I don't know what the back of drywall would look like, but from the attic side it look to be some sort of textured backing that feels like a coated cardboard (i'm sure that is not that, but it the best I can describe it)

The insulation is the roll type so that is not an issue regardless.

Quote:
You do not need green board, plain white drywall. You do need a vapor barrier. That can be plastic behind the drywall (if the if new insulation will be installed be certain its vapor barrier, if any, is defeated) or it can be a surface applied water proofing.
I think I recall reading that water ingress into drywall could cause issues. If so, with drywall I would think a surface product might be best.

Quote:
Regardless of what is used be certain the drywall is well fastened. 18" OC for 1/2" drywall with tile stuck to it might be a little wide, so consider some 2X4's installed perpendicular to the joists at 16" OC, or use 5/8" drywall on the ceiling.
Thanks for mentioning that. It sounds like that is the biggest potential issue.

- Karen
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Unread 03-09-2021, 03:40 PM   #110
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Another question but this one NON shower related.

I think I mentioned before that the house has plaster walls. To keep the bathroom consistent with the rest of the house, the non tiled parts of the walls would need to be plastered...

From the research I've done that will mean Blueboard which is meant to take a skim coat of plaster.

In this case about the bottom half of the wall will be tile and the rest would need to be plastered.

Could the whole wall be blueboard or should a different backer be used for the tile part...

If tileing the blueboard only half would be OK, might it still be better to use something else for backer for that part of the wall?


I have come across posts where blueboard was tilled but they did not say if it was the whole wall or just part.

Also from what I read it takes a bit of skill to do a good plaster job...

As it seems most homes these days only use painted drywall, is finding a GC who has someone good to do the plastering part likely to be difficult?

I assume the relative rarity of mastering these days like has price consequences.

Is having the walls plastered likely significantly more expensive than having untiled drywall painted?

Thanks for any feedback.

-Karen
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Unread 03-09-2021, 08:13 PM   #111
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The blueboard surface is supposed to have a special affinity for lime plaster, but I've never used it. As such, I'd expect it to be a rather good backing material for a ceramic tile installation.

Knowing generally how the skimcoat veneer plaster is done, if it's at all common in your area I wouldn't expect it to cost a lot more than finished drywall, 'specially if you were to want a level 5 drywall finish. But in my area it's not at all common and I'd expect to have a good bit of trouble finding someone to do it.

In Bwaston it might be a more common and popular finish and there may be lots of contractors who could provide that service. Possibly the same guys finishing drywall. All you can do is ask your prospective GCs if they have someone who can do the walls the way you want.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 03-10-2021, 12:06 PM   #112
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Hi CX,

Thanks for your reply!

CX wrote
Quote:
The blueboard surface is supposed to have a special affinity for lime plaster, but I've never used it. As such, I'd expect it to be a rather good backing material for a ceramic tile installation.

What I was concerned about was the place where the tile ends and the plaster begins. I would assume the part of the wall tiled would not be plastered and so I wondered if the area they come together might be an issue. Maybe it's just not an issue.


Quote:
Knowing generally how the skimcoat veneer plaster is done, if it's at all common in your area I wouldn't expect it to cost a lot more than finished drywall, 'specially if you were to want a level 5 drywall finish.
I had to google what a level 5 drywall finish was!... In such a small room with a lot of light I think that is what would be needed to look professionally done as paint would be at least a satin finish in a bathroom to be tough enough.

Quote:
In Bwaston it might be a more common and popular finish and there may be lots of contractors who could provide that service.
Probably right, as there are a lot of older homes here that probably have plaster walls around here.

What got me to worry about plastering was something I saw after googling. Some guy hired a local company here to do plastering for him and they left the wall very lumpy. He had to have it all sanded down... a real mess!

BTW in the bedroom in my house the ceilings have swirls... kind of nice looking...but of course that would never be the case in a bathroom with low ceilings!

Thanks, again.
-Karen
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Unread 03-10-2021, 06:58 PM   #113
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I've done more googling on tile and plaster walls.

Tileing on blueboard is fine, but from what I have read, plaster is not the best substrate for tile, as tile can have issues sticking to it... and they recommended using mastic on plaster as the tile sticks better than with thinset...

But I don't want mastic used anywhere in the bathroom...

So it seems the transition between the tile and plastered parts of the wall could be an issue...

I guess the solution might be to tile first directly on the blueboard, THEN cover/mask the tile with plastic/painters tape and do the plastering... (BTW the tile edge is planned to be marble pencil, not bullnose.

But where the pencil and plaster need to meet, could still be an issue that way... (don't want uncovered blueboard, but also don't want plaster covered pencil or a sloppy edge!)

[edit]
Just saw a video on plastering blueboard... The above would not work because of how the plaster needs to be applied ... the plaster would need to go on first... But not on the part of the wall the tile will be on wall. Still potential issues at the border...
[/edit]


Has anyone here needed to deal with something like this? So far it sounds like not many have have needed to deal with plaster walls here.

Thanks,
-Karen
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Unread 03-12-2021, 09:42 PM   #114
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I mentioned previously I was wondering if thee might be some issues under the tile... and have been reading about floor construction...

I I understood it the subfloor directly on the joists would be expected to be plywood. Then a underlayment and then tile..

This house was built around 1954 and I don't know if that is how they did it back then and wondered I is there might be issues lurking underneath...

I just this evening realized that I can see the underside of the bathroom floor from the basement... one thing is certain... there is definitely NOT plywood directly on the joists...

There are what I guess would be called boards or slats. Looking between them it looks like there may be a plywood on top of the slots (see pictures below).

Does this have any implications for the remodel? (Now there are two layers of tile, no idea how the first layer of tile was set, but it is likely original to the house. Would that have been mud in 1954?)

I am planing on 8X16 Porcelain tiles on the floor. Is this construction likely to complicate things?

Thanks,
-Karen
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Unread 03-12-2021, 10:02 PM   #115
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Depends upon what you consider a complication, Karen.

Best thing at this point would be to determine exactly what you have on top of that board subfloor. Without knowing that, our best advice might be to remove everything above that board subfloor, install a layer of minimum nominal half-inch plywood and see if the new subfloor is sufficiently flat for your new tile installation.

The tile industry standards call for those boards to be at least nominal 1x6 and have T&G edges. I expect the boards to be at least thick enough, but they're clearly not T&G style. If they are in good condition and well fastened, I'd not hesitate to consider them a legitimate first layer. See my warranty information below.

But until you remove some of your existing flooring, we're just guessing.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 03-13-2021, 10:45 AM   #116
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Thanks CX,

So it sounds like the construction of the floor is not likely to create a lot of additional expense...

Had a talk with a contractor by chance that we talked to about 5years ago ... He is not interested is this job because it is too small for him, and in any case he said he is booked solid until at least the fall, and he said because of COVID his prices have gone up a lot...

Not what I wanted to hear!

-Karen
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Unread 03-19-2021, 05:10 PM   #117
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Joist issue?

In other thread I posted about defection for tile in a possible future kitchen remodel... In that part of the house the floor joists are 10"X2" Actually measurement (NOT 9.25"x 1.5")... and Deflecto said the kitchen would-be OK or tile.

For the project at hand (the bathroom) I made the assumptions that
1) the floor joist size would be the same for all the floors in the original parts of the house (there is an addition)

2) since there were 2 layers of tile in the bathroom, and from the pink coves under the white coves, that the bathroom had a tile floor when it was first built, so tile should not be an issue...

Though since some of the tiles on the second layer cracked and some came off I was a little concerned, but put it off to the obviously poor DIY work of that installation being the most likely cause...

For some reason this evening I decided to actually measure the joists in the part of the house.. those ARE 9.25" X 1.5" and they are mostly 16" on center and the span is 14.5' ...

Since I don't know one wood from another using unknown wood in good condition Deflecto gives me a thumbs down for tile with L/347...

If the joists had been the same as the other section of the house, it would have been L / 432.

But in the middle of the bathroom part span there are some cross members (I am including a picture below). With those, am I likely to be Ok or would the joists likely need more shoring up?

BTW would the weight of a granite or Quartz 37X19 vanity top be an issue if I'm on the edge of acceptable deflection?

Thanks,
-Karen
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Unread 03-19-2021, 06:46 PM   #118
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Karen, with unknown wood species for your joist size and span the deflection is much worse than the L/432 you indicate. More like L/265, eh?

The "cross/blocking" you see between the joists is to keep the joists vertical under load, prevent them from twisting, and to help them maintain their design deflection. They do not improve the design deflection, though. They will usually make the floor feel more solid. Shortening the unsupported span by a couple feet would get you where you need to be, but I've no idea how feasible that might be in your situation. You could also consider sistering the joists.

We'd need to see more of the span of your joists to make any guess as to the species and grade unless you can locate a grade stamp on one of the joists and that might be a worthwhile endeavor.

The vanity top would add some dead load to your subfloor structure, but if it were put in place after the floor tile installation was completed it - and the manpower to carry and place it - might be a significant live load depending upon how large it might be and how many people were required for the installation.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 03-19-2021, 07:54 PM   #119
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CX Wrote:

Quote:
We'd need to see more of the span of your joists to make any guess as to the species and grade unless you can locate a grade stamp on one of the joists and that might be a worthwhile endeavor.
I could not find a grade stamp... It's getting late here, i will take pictures tomorrow.

While it's not the look we want for the floor and, it's an awful lot of grout to keep clean ... the tile we want does come in a 2X2 mosaic (obviously meant for a shower floor).

Would the required stiffness be less for such a mosaic? I ask because I wonder if that is why the original tile for the bathroom put in back in 1954 was a 1X1 mosaic.

BTW, while it would not have been an issue during construction, I don't see how one could even get a 14.5' beam into the basement now!

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Unread 03-19-2021, 09:19 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen
Would the required stiffness be less for such a mosaic? I ask because I wonder if that is why the original tile for the bathroom put in back in 1954 was a 1X1 mosaic.
No. In fact, I've always thought the stiffness requirement should be much higher for small mosaics as it is for natural stone. A 1x1" mosaic floor is little more than a full spread of thinset mortar and grout with some little stones pressed into it. No real dimensional strength of its own to speak of. But once again, the industry did not invite me to vote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen
The house was originally built in the early-mid 50's as a very small 2 bedroom ranch. If the 1X1 mosaic is the original floor, does that mean it likely was installed on a mud base?
Almost certainly. You've not tried to find out what's really under any of your tile installations? Such restraint!

We got away with a lot back in the days when there was no substrate for ceramic tile installations other than mortar beds. That was for floors and walls and counter tops and anywhere else a fella wanted to set some ceramic or stone tiles.

While you can certainly remove your tile installation and mud bed (I'm presuming) and install plywood over your board subflooring, install a "modern" tile substrate of your choice and take your chances, you cannot expect the structure to provide you the same margins as it did with the mortar bed. Yes, some of the modern substrates are excellent, but you'll note they all require the same subflooring structural requirements be met. And the industry standards even require the same L/360 deflection requirement for new mortar bed installations. That might simply be because of today's building codes requiring a maximum floor joist deflection of L/360 regardless the intended floor covering.

And I'm told that requirement originated with the advent of drywall ceilings. Prior to that "improvement," I believe the requirement was only L/240 and that was based upon plaster ceilings not cracking. I've never seen an old enough code book to verify that, but maybe one of our more advanced researchers can either verify or debunk that bit of information.

But enough of that. For sistering your joists to improve deflection, you must sister an absolute minimum of 2/3rds of the center of the joist span. So, theoretically, a 10-foot joist would work. A 12-footer would be better. But if you have the capability, a support wall or support beam to reduce the unsupported span of the joists frequently provides much more bang for the buck and the man-hour. You only need to reduce that span a couple feet. Can't see your basement from over here, but the infamous TYW basement closet at one end of the joists might be just what you need and provide always needed storage space to boot, eh?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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