Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 05-31-2020, 02:09 PM   #16
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 32,592
I'll add this, Jon. Looks like Cx and I were typing at the same time. His chicken pecking was faster than mine.

The job of the preslope under the liner is to give the liner slope towards the drain. That way when water gets thru the tile and top mud bed and to the liner, the slope will allow the water to travel thru the mud and to the weepholes in the drain. If the liner is flat on the floor, the water will just sit there and become stagnant.
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com
Davy is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 04:55 PM   #17
Jongrossman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Long Island
Posts: 16
Thank you both, this is very clear. When the tile floor and mud job are removed, should I insist that the saddle and the tile on the sides of the curb be removed as well? Does the mud job on the curb need to be redone? I don’t think there is any way for me to know of a lath was used or if the side/top of the liner on the curb was punctured without doing that.

Speaking of pitch, do window sills in showers need to be pitched as well? Now that I’m getting wise on all this, I realized that the tile window sills in my bath/shower combos are level, so water that gets on them will not drain into the the tub. Should that be a simple fix (just replace the sill tile will slightly pitched tile)?
__________________
Jon
Jongrossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 05:04 PM   #18
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 90,043
The problem with the curb is most likely to occur if the curb was not finished with metal lath and fat mud. If CBU was used on the curb, it's a Bozo No-No.

All horizontal surfaces (window sils, seats, niches, curb tops, etc) in a wet area (your shower) must be sloped to drain same as the shower floor and that must be at the level of the waterproofing membrane, not just the aesthetic tile surface.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 05:13 PM   #19
Davy
Moderator -- Mud Man
 
Davy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Princeton,Tx.- Dallas area
Posts: 32,592
I would ask him how he prepped the curb for tile. Ask him what he stuck the tiles to on the curb. If he says cement board, Denshield, Durock or anything other than mud, then he had to nail it, which means he penetrated the pan liner. Most likely, he will think nailing cement board to the curb is the correct way to do it. Get ready to hear him say he's done it this way for __ years without a problem.

His answers to the above questions should determine if the curb needs to be removed.

Yes, about the window sill. All horizontal surfaces, including the curb. Have you checked it? If it's flat then I would say it needs to come up and corrected.
__________________
Davy

www.davystephenstile.com
Davy is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 07:39 PM   #20
Jongrossman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Long Island
Posts: 16
So I told my contractor that I will not accept his tile over the tile idea, and he’s not thrilled. He says that he put a layer of hydro ban “up the walls after the mud job was done” so there is nothing to worry about. I’m still learning these terms and materials, but hydro ban appears to be some kind of waterproofing material that one could use to waterproof the walls of the shower.

I fail to understand how the use of hydro ban in the shower pan or the walls bears any relation whatsoever to the problems identified here: no pre-slope = stagnant water, improper slope = stagnant water. Even if there’s a layer of hydro ban on top of the mud job, am I right that water would just collect under the tile on top of the hydro ban layer and would not drain? It’s the pan liner that is supposed to feed into the weep holes. The hydro ban would not feed property into the drain.

Back to the window sills point: Cx said that not only the outer tile needs to be sloped, the waterproofing underneath needs to be as well. Should there be waterproofing under all niches and sills?
__________________
Jon
Jongrossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 08:36 PM   #21
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 90,043
You can Google Hydroban, Jon. It's a liquid-applied direct bonded waterproofing membrane (ANSI A118.10) made by Laticrete. It can, indeed, be used to waterproof the walls of your shower. But you are correct that it really has no bearing at all on the shower receptor problem you have.

Yes, there should be waterproofing everywhere in your shower from the drain to above the pipe serving the shower head. The shower should be completely watertight before the decorative tile layer is ever installed.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 08:56 PM   #22
Kman
Moderator
 
Kman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NW Arkansas, Ozark Mountains
Posts: 11,425
One other red flag to me is the size of those tile on the floor. The larger the tile, the more difficult it is to get the bowl-shaped floor that's needed for proper drainage.

I tell all my customers to find something that is no longer than 4" on any side for the floor. Larger than that, and corners start sticking up and you have to start to trying to build up low corners, it's a big mess.

But there's no excuse for that backfall for even a minimally experienced tile setter. When i mud a floor I check all around to make sure there's adequate slope to the drain. I check again after the floor tile is down. That shouldn't have been done the way it is, and shouldn't have been left like that when it was discovered. It's a complete failure.
__________________
Kevin

The top ten reasons to procrastinate:

1.
Kman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2020, 09:33 PM   #23
Tool Guy - Kg
Moderator -- Wisconsin Kitchen & Bath Remodeler
 
Tool Guy - Kg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oak Creek, WI
Posts: 21,888
...sorry to hear of such an installation. It's astounding that the pan has a reverse pitch to it. I mean, the most important thing when building a pan is to have it slope to the drain. Slight irregularities or waves to the surface of the pan are a common problem that needs to be worked out. But to have an outrageous reverse pitch that's so bad, the naked eye can pick it up is a sign of great inexperience. When working with business law, you're obligated to allow the installer a chance to fix a mistake...but that's such a huge mistake, I can't fathom allowing them to continue. That's super unfortunate.

In addition, I've noticed what I think is an additional error. Niches are areas that require special attention because they are prone to failure if not properly installed. I see in your picture that it looks like you've got a healthy sized gap between the cement board walls and the 4 sides to your niche. Laticrete's instructions say you're supposed to fill the gaps at the change of planes. Instead, you've got a very rough transition. Also, you're supposed to reinforce gaps that are larger then 1/8" with their anti-fracture fabric. While I can't tell definitively, I enlarged your picture the best I could, and it appears that you've got gaps larger than 1/8". With niches being an area prone to failure (I know I've fixed niches that were improperly installed), I would demand a tear out of the back wall at least to the height of the top of the niche. Once that's torn out, it's going to be very difficult to tie that back wall's waterproofing into the left and right wall...which begs for the whole, darn thing to be torn out and properly installed.

Sorry to see you in such a position. Nobody paying a professional to install something that depends heavily on the skill of the installer to keep your home from suffering moisture damage should have to "negotiate" with the installer to correct their big mistakes.

__________________
Tonto Goldstein... but my friends call me Bubba

Help an awesome summer camp!
Tool Guy - Kg is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-01-2020, 06:55 AM   #24
Jongrossman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Long Island
Posts: 16
Kg, thanks for the additional points. I have attached a closer in photo of the niche. Just to make sure I understand, you’re saying that the cement board was cut in a way that leaves gaps between it and the four walls of the niche. Laticrete should have been used to seal the gaps and, if they are larger than 1/8” gaps, should have been reinforced with anti fracture fabric. Is that right?

Question: if Laticrete had been used to seal those joints, would it be visible in the picture? Is it obvious from the picture that there’s a gap that hasn’t been filled?
Attached Images
 
__________________
Jon
Jongrossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-01-2020, 07:03 AM   #25
Jongrossman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Long Island
Posts: 16
Kman, thanks for the point about the tile size.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a simple 3x3 or 4x4 grey tile from Home Depot or Lowe’s (ie easy to get) that would work better for the shower floor? We had been advised against small tile or penny tile because of all the grout lines and cutting required.
__________________
Jon
Jongrossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-01-2020, 09:42 AM   #26
ss3964spd
Moderator
 
ss3964spd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fairfax, Va
Posts: 3,093
Send a message via Yahoo to ss3964spd
They don't recommend a "small" tile because they're difficult to cut? As a novice I can see how penny's would pose a challenge for cutting and installing, but those should be well within a pro's wheel house.

Lowes or Depot should have a pretty wide assortment of suitable tiles for a shower floor. Remember that all tile is slippery when wet so all the many grout lines, that result when using smaller tiles, offer more grip for wet feet. Look for some that are roughly 2X2 inches.

Honestly, I'd make them re-do the whole thing. The niche not being centered in that decorative vertical band would drive me crazy.
__________________
Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent, but my ability to access it is intermittent.
ss3964spd is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-01-2020, 10:54 AM   #27
Jongrossman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Long Island
Posts: 16
Thanks all, demo has commenced and we will try this again. My contractor is on board and actually asked to see this thread to get advice for the redo. He suggested we use a Shluter Kerdi system for the new shower.

He wanted to know why everyone is advising against a demo halfway up the shower wall. The walls were originally waterproofed with hydro ban and he thinks it would be straightforward to tie the new Kerdi membrane to the existing waterproofing.

Also, I noticed that the Schluter Kerdi pans appear to come in preset sizes. If our shower doesn’t fit the size exactly, is this system still a good idea?
__________________
Jon
Jongrossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-01-2020, 11:38 AM   #28
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 90,043
You'll wanna be very careful with that change to a direct bonded waterproofing membrane type shower receptor, too. If you're tile contractor is not familiar with such systems, you could have major difficulties with that system, too. If he can't see the difficulty in not being able to provide continuity in the wall waterproofing if he removed only the bottom portion of the existing shower, I'd be concerned with his installation of the Kerdi system.

Nothing particularly difficult with the Kerdi system, but it does require significant attention to detail.

As for the foam floor tray, I would recommend you not use that at all, but build your own sloped floor of deck mud (like your pre-slope should have been done) to perfectly fit your shower footprint and drain location and provide a much more solid floor with a proper slope to drain and a level perimeter.

You need to read the dowloadable Installation Handbook for the Kerdi shower start to finish before beginning and require that your contractor do the same. It's substantially different from a traditional shower construction, but not at all difficult to master.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-01-2020, 02:15 PM   #29
Hoggercap
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Vero Beach, Florida
Posts: 27
I've never bought a new house, but NEW means NEW. Not repaired, not factory refurbished, but new. An auto dealer tried to tell me that because the truck had never been registered, it was new. Pffft, he put 5000 miles on it as his daily driving personal vehicle = USED.

Rant notwithstanding, you need to stand your ground. There is an entity in your state that issued his license, regulates all contractors and who can also revoke said license. If he has a license, he has mandatory insurance, which will be on file with the State.

If he's not happy now, he certainly won't be when you file a claim with his ins.
__________________
Adam
Hoggercap is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-02-2020, 08:48 AM   #30
Jongrossman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Long Island
Posts: 16
Davy, your concern was correct. I have attached a picture of the curb, which had cement board screwed/nailed in on both the top and inside of the curb. My contractor says that this isn't an issue, because he waterproofed all the cement board and the top mud with hydroban, so he "wasn't relying on the liner" for waterproofing. I'd like to know everyone's view on this, as I strongly suspect from all the prior posts that this approach doesn't work.

I also attached a picture of the removed wall tile. One of the wall tiles had almost no cement at all holding it to the wall, it just popped off the cement board. Was this tile installed correctly?

We also have a drop-in tub on the other side of the bathroom. I'm starting to think that I may need to be concerned about that as well. Anything I should look for to make sure that won't pose it's own waterproofing/failure issues?

Thanks all. I am getting educated rather quickly on all this, and greatly appreciate all the advice.
Attached Images
  
__________________
Jon
Jongrossman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to float glass tile up to meet the ceramic tile in a shower? peter941 Tile Forum/Advice Board 4 07-08-2012 08:33 PM
Install tile shelf in existing ceramic tile shower. jgibbs Tile Forum/Advice Board 4 06-05-2012 09:44 PM
Tiling outside corner with glass tile. Also ending 1/2 wall tile at tiled shower cmarks927 Tile Forum/Advice Board 13 03-11-2011 06:24 PM
cutting holes in tile and installing over current tile shower floor philawkndwarrior Tile Forum/Advice Board 4 01-13-2008 07:16 PM
Totally need shower tile advice before having this guy re-tile our old shower fwsmith Tile Forum/Advice Board 195 01-05-2007 01:32 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:27 PM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC