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Old 11-15-2012, 11:10 AM   #16
HooKooDoo Ku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmullan
This discussion has made me aware that I don't even need a shower with three walls, it could be constructed in the corner of the room with one glass door and one glass wall (on top of a curb). In which case it would easily meet the 30" international standard (not that I am concerned with meeting code but maybe I would like a 31" x 36" shower). There will be a stacking W/D on the other side of the glass pane so I'll have to think about the aesthetic implications of such a change before I commit one way or the other.
So use Frosted glass.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:05 PM   #17
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Thanks for the answers guys, very helpful. Frosted glass, yes. I am planning to use this between the stacked W/D. The aesthetic concern was that I was planning on balancing the visual weight of the stacked W/D with the framing of the shower but if the dividing wall is simply a pane of glass meeting the glass shower door at the corner (with no framing) I'm thinking it might appear unbalanced. Maybe I can visually balance the visual weight of the W/D by mirroring the two shower curbs with matching upside down "curbs" on the ceiling above the two glass portions of the shower. The room is a simple rectangle 60" wide by 9 feet long and the shower and stacked W/D consume the entire end of the room.

The only part of this discussion I'm not completely clear on is the glass "bumpers". The photos show the bumpers perpendicular to the pane. Are these trimmed flush with the pane once the silicone caulk has set up? Or, could I caulk under the pane of glass leaving a small gap near each bumper and then completely remove the bumpers once the caulk has set? Then caulk the gaps where the bumpers were, followed by a finish caulk joint on either side of the pane?

I'm not trying to but I don't feel like I'm understanding completely.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:21 PM   #18
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The only part of this discussion I'm not completely clear on is the glass "bumpers". The photos show the bumpers perpendicular to the pane. Are these trimmed flush with the pane once the silicone caulk has set up? Or, could I caulk under the pane of glass leaving a small gap near each bumper and then completely remove the bumpers once the caulk has set? Then caulk the gaps where the bumpers were, followed by a finish caulk joint on either side of the pane?
Anyone?
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:34 PM   #19
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I dunno how Paul does his. I have never set glass on top of my tile installation and don't think I'd be incline to do so.

I use little, clear, dime-size, plastic bumpers under my glass edges and they are down between the tiles on either side. They are very easily trimmed with a razor blade or utility knife when necessary, but you wanna be very careful of your waterproofing membrane if it's of the direct bonded type.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 09-17-2013, 05:53 PM   #20
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Thanks for all the help guys. The project is is much improved due to the long, thoughtful design process and good advice here. (yep, two years, time flies)

The bathroom floor has a new 1/2" plywood layer, the shower framing has been made level and plumb and backed up with more nailers and 1/2" Hardibacker screwed on. Shower drain is plumbed and a ceiling light has been added in the center of the shower. Photos to come.

Glass and hardware is expected to arrive next week (complete with 1/8" clear bumpers for the fixed glass). The glass will be tiled in at the base as well as up the back wall and held by a U-channel at the top, mitered to meet the bi-fold door header. I have not installed the CBU on the curbs yet as I want to measure the actual glass and hardware before committing to exact micro-dimensions.

One dilemma is in selecting the shower tile. Personally, I think the recent trend to earthen tone showers is a visual disaster. I think showers should look clean and cheery, not subdued like old leather and dirt. Of course it's a matter of personal preference, I'm just surprised so many people like the "earthy" baths. I'm looking for smaller tiles in bright pastels that I can intersperse in a light/white field. But the recent trend to larger tiles and earthen tones is so pervasive the local tile retailers don't have much to satisfy me. Still looking.

I do have a process question about installing floor heating wires under Ditra. I purchased some inexpensive metal wire retaining strips that are designed to be stapled to the floor. However, they hold the wires off the plywood by the thickness of the sheet metal and the wire retainers extend over the top of the heating wire also, further increasing the thickness of thinset needed to cover the wires. I would like to avoid using these metal strips if possible.

Any pro's/cons to laying the wire in dabs of hot melt glue and omitting the metal retainers? Other methods?

Also, do I cover the wires with thinset and lay the Ditra in the same step or create a flat surface of thinset at the top of the wire that is allowed to harden before using another coating of thinset to affix the Ditra on top? Either way I'm envisioning potential difficulty keeping the installation flat enough for the 6" x 24" flooring tiles. Tips?

Also, the Ditra will be flashed up the walls with Kerdi-band. If I understand the install instructions, the Kerdi-band goes on top of the waffle pattern on the Ditra. Since thinset is not watertight, what is to prevent water from migrating through the thinset that fills voids in the Ditra waffle pattern?

Thanks in advance for any advice/clarity on these thoughts.
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:42 PM   #21
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Welcome back Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Glass and hardware is expected to arrive next week...
Your sequence may cause you issues/headaches. I order glass after the tile installation so it can be measured to fit actual dimensions.

You will need to make sure your framing and tile are perfect dimension wise for the glass you ordered to work. Cut a piece of non wavy (flat) plywood to use as a template for your glass as you continue.

Others will chime in for the heated floor.
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Old 09-19-2013, 12:41 AM   #22
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The fixed glass will be tiled in at the bottom and in a metal U-channel at the top which will be affixed to the Kerdi covered CBU and the tile will abut the U-channel. So I don't think the tile thickness should impact proper sizing of the glass pane.

The bi-fold door will have it's header affixed to the Kerdi covered CBU as well. The tile thickness will impact the clearance at the bottom of the door but I wanted to look at how the bottom seals were constructed and verify door hardware dimensions and select the curb treatment before committing to an exact curb height. I'm considering using a single piece of cut stone for the top of the curb at the shower entry.

I do hope I get feedback regarding installation of the heating wire and Ditra, especially tips on maintaining flatness to ease the tiling with 6" x 24" tiles.
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Old 09-19-2013, 03:07 AM   #23
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Quote:
posted by Mike:
Any pro's/cons to laying the wire in dabs of hot melt glue and omitting the metal retainers? Other methods?

Also, do I cover the wires with thinset and lay the Ditra in the same step or create a flat surface of thinset at the top of the wire that is allowed to harden before using another coating of thinset to affix the Ditra on top? Either way I'm envisioning potential difficulty keeping the installation flat enough for the 6" x 24" flooring tiles. Tips?

Also, the Ditra will be flashed up the walls with Kerdi-band. If I understand the install instructions, the Kerdi-band goes on top of the waffle pattern on the Ditra. Since thinset is not watertight, what is to prevent water from migrating through the thinset that fills voids in the Ditra waffle pattern?

Thanks in advance for any advice/clarity on these thoughts.
Mike, yes I use a glue gun for my heating wires, little dab ol do ya.

I always pour self leveler over the wires to encase them and give me a flat surface then I put the ditra over that, Schluter wants heat under ditra. I always felt if you are troweling over wires or mats chance of nicking a wire and not worth it. You can put 5/16" of leveler to cover wires make sure they are down good with lots of hot glue.

You want to fill the waffles with thinset, unmod. first let that dry. Then put the band on to avoid any migration.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:03 AM   #24
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Quote:
You want to fill the waffles with thinset, unmod. first let that dry. Then put the band on to avoid any migration
Is there a reason to let the thinset dry before applying Kerdi band in a second step? If I recall, the Schluter video shows it being done in one step.

Also, my confusion is that I was under the impression that thinset is not waterproof and therefore I don't understand why water will not wick through the thinset between the waffles.
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:36 AM   #25
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There is no technical advantage at all to doing two steps there, Mike. I would do it all at once, but that's up to you.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 09-23-2013, 10:45 PM   #26
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Thanks CX, that's good to know. I'm assuming you are referring to laying the Kerdi band on top of the Ditra all in one application of thinset?

But I still have a couple of areas that seem mysterious to me. One is a curiosity and the other is more troubling to the point of keeping me up at night.

Curiosity:

I can see how two Kerdi membranes held together by a thin layer of thinset 2 inches wide can be waterproof. But how on God's green earth can the Kerdi stop water from migrating through the 1/8" thick layer of thinset in the waffles between the Ditra and Kerdi when Kerdi is layered on top of the Ditra waffles around the baseboard area? Is thinset porous to water or not? Obviously, this works well enough and it is not keeping me up at night but I would still like a better understanding of how it works and how well it works. My intuition tells me this would not work in a shower floor with daily use but that it is adequate for mopping, and occasional flooding?

Keeping me awake at night:

1) Laying the wires under the Ditra. Is this a one or two step application of thinset to fix the wires in thinset and bond the Ditra on top of that?

2) How do I burnish (I forgot the correct term) the thinset to the plywood with the wires glued in place every 2"?

3) What tips will help insure the Ditra is laid as flat as possible? I'm concerned any deviation from very flat will result in issues setting the 6" x 24" tiles.

Please let me know if I have not supplied enough specifics to allow the more informed to make useful comment.
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:45 PM   #27
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Yes.

I've never actually tested that application to see how waterproof it is, Mike, and I should. But our experience is that Schluter is pretty straight forward with their product claims. If you're not comfortable with it, don't do it.

Thinset mortar is not waterproof.

1. Theoretically it could be done in one step, I would never even consider trying it in fewer than two.

2. I think keying-in is the term you're looking for. Answer is, "Do the best you can." The end of a margin trowel might be your best tool. If it's too wide, make in more narrow.

3. Make the subfloor very, very flat and you should have no trouble making your Ditra installation very, very flat.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 09-24-2013, 02:55 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
I've never actually tested that application to see how waterproof it is, Mike, and I should. But our experience is that Schluter is pretty straight forward with their product claims. If you're not comfortable with it, don't do it.
I'm OK with it, sometimes I'm simply too curious. I don't plan to turn my bathroom into a wading pool!


Quote:
Originally Posted by CX

1. Theoretically it could be done in one step, I would never even consider trying it in fewer than two.

2. I think keying-in is the term you're looking for. Answer is, "Do the best you can." The end of a margin trowel might be your best tool. If it's too wide, make in more narrow.
Yes, "keying-in".

I'm willing to take as many steps as it takes to decrease stress and rush and increase confidence in the install. So, not less than 2 steps.

*Question #1*: Would it make sense then to use three applications of thinset up to the point the Ditra is bonded on top of the wires?

One thin layer to key-in to the plywood, glue the wires on, then a second application of thinset to the top of the wires, followed by a layer to bond the Ditra?

This would avoid having to key-in the thinset with a 1 1/2" knife around the wires.

How would the experts do this (assuming quickness was not the primary consideration)?



Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
3. Make the subfloor very, very flat and you should have no trouble making your Ditra installation very, very flat.
That makes me feel better. The subfloor is very flat (no detectable dips or humps with a four foot level) although it is not quite level. It slopes as much as 1/16" over four feet.

*Question #2* Is there an article or collection of Ditra install tips and techniques that go beyond the Schluter literature?
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Old 09-24-2013, 04:55 PM   #29
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1. You could do that.

2. Not that I'm aware of. The Ditra Installation Handbook is the best source I know of. Available online.

It's a very simple operation, though. Biggest problem folks generally have is the result of not mixing the thinset mortar correctly. It wants to be rather fluid but still hold its shape when you comb it with a notched trowel.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 09-25-2013, 01:36 PM   #30
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Thanks CX.

1) Can you give me an idea of how thin I can spread the first application of thinset? Is 1/32" OK?

2) I assume the next layer that embeds the heating wire will bond to the cured thin layer underneath without lots of keying-in? Would you mix all layers of thinset to the same consistency?

3) Since the heating wires will cause thermal expansion I assume I should use a modified thinset with plenty of acrylic. Would Ditra-set with Bostik 447 Flex-a-lastic additive be suitable? I realize this is likely more expensive than necessary but I am trying to keep the thickness down at each step and assume flexibility is a good thing here. The area is quite small so the extra expense will be relatively small. Additionally, using the same thinset for setting the shower tiles, Kerdi membrame, heating wire, Ditra and floor tiles will minimize the number of half-used bags left over.
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