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Unread 08-13-2012, 12:42 PM   #1
kass
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2
Shower Pan on Basement Floor

I’m trying to install a shower in my basement.

Current conditions:
PAINTED Block wall on three sides
Curb already poured in place (neo design layout) – 5” high
Red Guard on shower pan area (paint on pink, dries red)
Drain already in and concrete poured just to cover close in the hole (not properly to drain)
I have mosaic tiles for the pan area, but 12” tiles for the walls.

Ultimate outcome
Tile three walls, ceiling and pan area to drain

Questions:
What kind of concrete do I use to pour my sloped pan? (Area 31” x 42”) Curb already in place.
Can I apply the tile directly to the painted block wall without using hardy backer?
Is there a water proof mortar or thin set and grout out there so that water does seep through and get caught between the new poured pan and the red guarded area?
How do I prevent water from going under the sloped concrete and smelling?

Please help.

Thanks.
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Unread 08-13-2012, 05:17 PM   #2
TechHead
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You really need to go to the Library part of the forum and read up on shower construction, you have a few misconceptions.

The preslope is not poured, its a dry pack (sand topping mix), sloped 1/4" per foot. Preslope needs to be 1 1/2" thick min at drain, then measure the farthest wall/curb point from the drain and add 1/4" per foot. This is the top of the preslope all around the shower.

Redguard on the pan, does not make a water proof shower. There is no such thing as waterproof mortar, thinset, or grout. Really, there isn't.

Waterproofing is plastic sheeting behind cement board, or paint on everything with Redguard or Hydroban (drain can be tricky), or a membrane like Kerdi, or a board membrane like Kerdi or Wedi.

Your location may mean everything regarding what you can do directly to block walls. In cold climates it may expand and contract to much. Paint is generally a bad thing to adhere to, and needs to be removed mechanically (no chemicals).

Having said that, as one of the grizzled vets here is apt to say, its your shower, you can do anything you want with it. The pros here will help you do it the right way so it will last a lifetime, but its up to you..
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Unread 08-13-2012, 05:45 PM   #3
Denver Chuck
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Forrest, you say pre-slope is min 1.5 inches at the drain.... I don't think that is accurate.

The pre-slope is even with the top of the base of the 3-piece drain, which typically gives around 1/2 inch or so of mud at the drain.

The top-layer is typically about 1.5 inches.

In the case of a kerdi shower, where you don't have a top layer, and using the taller kerdi drain, the preslope would typically be 1.25 - 1.5 inches deep, but I don't think Kass mentioned making it a kerdi shower anywhere.


Kass,
here is one of the good reference articles posted in the library
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Unread 08-13-2012, 05:51 PM   #4
TechHead
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I've done Kerdi and might be remembering that, but I also seem to remember someone saying a mudbed min is 1 1/2" for strength and stability. He's not talking about another layer here either, just one layer and Redguard. A pro will chime in I'm sure.
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Unread 08-15-2012, 03:18 PM   #5
kass
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OK, so if the floor is already closed up and drain is already in, I have no way to weep the water away between the new concrete (sand topping mix) and old concrete that is painted with red guard? Can I pour the sand topping mix on a 'tray' so that the water can get down through to channels to the weeping holes. It would just make sence to find a sand topping mix that is not poroous to always keep water above which will eventually drain.

I'm also hearing that I need to mechanically remove the old paint from the block wall. Are you saying there isn't a thin set that will hold the 12" x 12" tiles to a painted wall.. In other words something stronger than paint?

I'm sorry. I've not seen an article that addresses these exact conditions.

I've attached some photos. the walls are not damp at all. dry as a whistle.

thanks again for the forums help!!
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Unread 08-16-2012, 12:42 PM   #6
TechHead
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Ok, what you have now is a waterproof tray thats not sloped to drain, nice for a pool but useless for a shower. The last thing you want is a layer where trapped water just sits and starts growing stinky nasty organisms.

The below links might be more of what your looking for, either way you need to get a drainage slope to the weep holes or change the drain to a Kerdi type like in the begining of the 2nd link.

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ighlight=divot

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ighlight=divot

I believe the logic of not tiling to paint has more to do with the original paint pulling off the wall, then the correct thinset not bonding to the roughed up paint. Either way the walls still need to be waterproofed with Reguard or equivalent and it would depend on the manufacturers recommendations over paint.

Hope this helps
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Unread 08-16-2012, 02:41 PM   #7
John Bridge
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Hi Kass,

Yes, it looks like you'll need to do a little re-working on that drain and the floor you put RedGard on. You need to end up with a "pre-slope" UNDER the clamping ring on the drain. There might be a clamping ring you went over with RedGard. Can't really tell.

I would fasten cement backer board to the block walls using tap-cons or some other mechanical fasteners. After you've reviewed our shower articles in the Liberry I think you'll have a better idea of what I'm talking about.
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