Grout Information (a collection of posts)

[flatfloor]

All tile grouts fall into two basic categories: cement-based grout and epoxy grout. Grouts used for tiling should not be confused with caulks, which are elastomeric materials used for filling gaps between various building materials.

Cement-based grouts have a base of portland cement, but they differ in the types of additives they contain. Most come in powdered form to which water or liquid latex is added. Cement-based grouts include commercial portland cement, dry-set and latex-portland cement grouts. Latex-portland cement grout is the most versatile grout for residential applications.

Epoxy grout contains an epoxy resin and hardener, giving it a high degree of chemical resistance, excellent bond strength and superior impact resistance. It is the most expensive of the grouts, and therefore usually confined to industrial and commercial applications. It is somewhat thick and not easy to apply. If your tiles are more than 1/2-inch thick and the grout joints are less than 1/4- inch wide, the grout will not penetrate.

When it comes to cement-based grouts there are basically two form variations.

One is SANDED GROUT and the other is UNSANDED GROUT.

SANDED GROUT is used to fill wider grout joints. Sand (usually silica sand) is added to the basic portland cement along with colorants and other additives. When sand is added this increases strength and lends bulk for filler. Sanded grout is generally used in grout lines that exceed 1/16 inch in width.

UNSANDED GROUT is reserved for smaller grout lines around 1/16 inch or less. It might be noted that some natural stone tiles such as granite and marble are placed very close together having usually a 1/16 inch grout line and generally not more than 1/8 inch wide.

There are additives that can also be used (added) in grouts at mixing time to promote a stronger more stain resistant product when cured.

Grout sealers are also available for application to the grouts surface after it has thoroughly dried/cured. Grout sealers are strongly recommended.

[Edited by John Bridge on 05-05-2002 at 10:35 AM]

Lat 4237 was originally developed in the late 50\'s to be mixed with job site sand/cement to make a latex modified thinset.

4237 contains latex, retardants, and tactifyers. All that is needed to make thinset is to add sand and cement in a 1:1 ratio. This can be accomplished with Laticrete 211 Crete filler powder. 211 is nothing more than ANSI approved graded aggregates and portland cement, in a 1:1 ratio.

For exterior jobs, high temperature conditions, and/or setting over a mud bed, 4237 can be mixed with Lat 317 or Lat 272 to get a latex thinset with double the amount of retardants and tactifyers. The open time and adjustability are much longer than using regular thinset.

To make a colored thinset, mix 4237 with Laticrete 500 series sanded grout. The grout is 1:1 sand/cement, and contains no latex. The 4237 provides the rest of the ingrediants to make thinset. The nice thing about this is when setting mosaics, any excess that oozes up through the tile can be struck off with a grout float and sponge. The next day, mix the same color 500 series grout with Lat 1776 grout additive and grout all the joints that didn\'t get the ooze in them.

It is important to use the 1776 additive in the grout because it has comparable quality and quanty of latex, and helps to minimize or eliminate the shading problems that you might expect to see when grouting an installation on different days.

[Bud Cline]

Here is an interesting product that claims to clean your grout without chemicals.

I have no first hand knowledge of this product and to me it appears to be a knockoff of those sponges covered with sandpaper that you can buy in a hardware store paint department. The concept surely would work though.

Check it out and see what you think, they have their contact information on the site. Each page loads very slowly so be patient.

www.r-teez.com

[cx]

Chris the Rep
Registered User


Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 61
The most commonly used silicone sealants in the construction trade fall into 2 groups with regard to their chemistry and cure method. If it says on the label that it is "acid curing" or "liberates acetic acid" it is known as an acetoxy silicone. We've all used them, they have that pungent, distinct vinegar odor. If you read the tube and/or the data sheet, they are generally not recommended for use on masonry or cement based surfaces. The acid that is liberated during the cure can attack the cement, or in some cases the stone, potentially causing bond and seal failure. As a tub cauk, it works great because it bonds extremely well to the more-often-than-not glazed surface of the tile. As it relates to shelf life, when it gets old, it hardens in the tube, so there is no question as to whether it is bad or not.

Neutral cure silicones used in construction often use an alkoxy cure method. They are used often in the glazing and curtainwall trades. Since they don't liberate acid when they cure, they work great on masonry, stone, brick, and other acid sensitive materials like anodized aluminum, galvanived surfaces, copper, etc. Urethanes are often used with metals, but for glass and structural glazing, neutral cure is the best. Unfortunately, neutral cure silicones have a short shelf life, unless refrigerated. 6 months is the usual. However, unlike the acetoxy that gets hard in the tube, neutral cure will gun out of the tube like a dream, it will just never cure. What's worse than removing caulk? Removing caulk that didn't cure.

Most of the limitations regarding acetoxy silicones aren't a huge concern to the average tub surround job. But when you're essentially gluing in 500# panes of glass a couple of hundred feet or more up the side of a building, you tend to get a little picky about such things.

Neutral cure is a good choice for the tile trades, but it is more expensive. Buy it from a caulking/waterproofing wholesaler that sells a lot of it, that way you'll know that you're getting fresh material.

Chris

[cx]

Chris the Rep
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 56

In re: A question about good brands of caulking gun, to whit:

Chris, you're da man but how do we know know if a gun is any good for this messy goop. Paid $15 - $20 for mine, made in England, COX. Are they in the ball park for good?

Cox is a good brand, so are Albion. My local concrete accessories supply house carries both. Since they will extrude material with the lightest touch, they offer a greater degree of control. I like open frame guns, they tend to have very stout frames that are not easily damaged, but are easy to handle when overhead and when caulking corners.

BTW, do you push the gun and nozzle toward the uncaulked joint, or pull it toward you to fill the joint? With a little practice, pushing the gun makes a better joint; it gets the sealant deeper into the void. Pushing takes practice, and a bit steadier hand, but it really is easier to control the amount of material being gunned into the joint. Kind of like grout, every bit of excess you put on in the beginning means more you'll have to remove in the end.

A little blue masking tape always helps here. Press it in well at the edge of the joint. Gun in the sealant. and tool with a knife. I have a set of tooling knives, (Funny, they are exactly like frosting spreaders I saw in a fancy kitchenware store), but with an old flexible blade putty knife and a little time at the grinder, you can round off a section of the tip and fashion a handy dandy tooling knife to compress and smooth whatever radius you need. A rounded end of an old hacksaw blade (wrap the teeth with tape) is almost perfect sized for the caulking in a shower. The idea here is to compress the sealant into the joint. Move slowly, and wipe the knife often to keep any build up from oozing around the blade and creating an additional mess.

Remove the tape while the caulk is still wet before doing finger tooling. Pull the tape across the freshly caulked joint, never try to peel it away from the joint. That way, any strings of sealant from the tape (if you gunned and knifed it correctly, there shouldn't be too much excess) will be back on the joint instead of on the surface of what you are caulking.

With silicone or urethane sealant, do the final tooling with a bit of soap in some water. With latex caulk, water alone is usually fine. Many caulkers use a soda bottle, and insert their index or middle finger to plug the bottle and then tip it to wet their finger. Use a very light touch, but don't try to tool too much of a section, a fast, sweeping motion is best. Like trying to brush lint off of a piece of fabric. Wipe finger on rag and repeat as necessary. Don't wipe it finger on pants, Murphy bets that you'll rub against the expensive woodwork or newly painted wall on the way out.


When I was taught to tool the old pro said, "act like the surface is really hot, if you touch it too heavily or linger too long it will hurt you or the finished surface." You'll know when you've got it right, the joint will be very smooth. You'll be able to start and stop anywhere along the fresh joint to continue tooling and smoothing and never see where you started or stopped.

Nuttin to it, and if properly done, it really helps protect the installation. It is one of those little skills that set the skilled craftsperson apart from the average installer.

Chris

[Chris the Rep]

In response to a question from a DIYer, our friend Chris explained the care and feeding of this expoxy grout thus:

Rick,

First off, do not try to mix less than 25# of grout. Open Part A and Part B, stir each one in the pail it came in completely. Then empty "A" and "B" into your mixing pail, scraping out as much as possible. Stir these two together completely. You'll know when, the 2 colors will be completely blended. Then start to stir in the whole bag of powder, a little at a time. You'll need a drill mixer for this, you won't be able to mix it well enough by hand. Mix thoroughly, taking care to scrape the bottom and sides of the mixing pail. Let stand about 15 minutes, then re-mix. If the material feels a little stiff in the pail after 30 minutes or so, just re-mix it, it will loosen up. But don't add any additional liquid to it.

After you start spreading grout, if it looks like it is going to take longer than a couple of hours to use all of the material in the pail, you can park the pail in a tub filled with cold water (Add some ice to the tub if it is really hot in the work area. I put the whole pail in the fridge once when I had to leave for an emergency). Cool temperatures will extend the bucket life considerably. Just remember, if you cool it, it will take longer to set up in the joints.

A light wipe over the tiles with a barely damp sponge is a good idea just before spreading the grout. You don't want pooled water, or any water in the joints, you're just trying to fill the minute pores on the face of the tile. Work the grout into the joints and use an epoxy float to remove as much as possible from the face of the tile. After 30-45 minutes, come back and see if it is firm enough to begin cleaning. Don't be alarmed if it isn't ready yet, if it isn't, leave it for a few minutes and continue grouting some more. When it is firm enough to not drag out, use the pad to lightly scrub the face of the tiles, and then use the sponge to take up the residue. Warm water is OK, but I wouldn't be using the Remove yet.

What you're trying to accomplish with the pad is to scrub the residue to an even, uniform, albeit heavy, film on the face of the tiles, then use the sponge to remove the film. Have the sponge heavy with water, but not dripping. Lay it flat on the tile, grab the top edge closest to you, and pull it diagonally toward you, keeping the sponge flat on the floor. You should have an almost clean surface. Flip the sponge over and make another pass on the next section, then rinse. You can do the same thing faster with an old bath towel. Wet it, wring it so it isn't dripping, and holding it by the corners, flop it out as flat as possible, so it settles flat on the floor. Grab the corners, but don't lift the towel from the surface of the floor, and pull it towards you. Kind of like using a chamois on your car.

You want to always go from the floor to the first pail of cleaning water, so the heavy residue gets deposited there. Rinse and wring sponge or pad thoroughly, and then pick up fresh soultion from the second pail and take it to the floor. Never go from pail 1 to the floor. As for changing the water, when it becomes difficult to get the pad rinsed out in pail 1, dump the water, rinse it clean and refill it. Pail 2, which shouldn't be too dirty yet, becomes pail 1, and the fresh pail of water becomes pail 2.

Check back frequently, and when the grout feels like it is beginning to harden, you can go back with the Remove in warm water and your pad and sponge to clean up the final residue. Follow the same 2 bucket method as the first time. If you see any traces of residue the day after, or if the floor feels tacky when you walk across it or to the touch, use the Remove again to clean it. Don't let it go more than 24 hours! You can use Remove full strength if you find a heavy deposit. But don't use it on marble or near brass.

Hydroment 1900 is a great product, slow setting and very forgiving. You'll find the grout color will be richer than the sample (a bit darker) than the sample you chose. BTW, this product will not yield to vinegar and water for haze removal.

Chris

[Mike2]

Here is an excellent "How-to" primer on SpectaLOCK PRO grout written by Ron Nash, Technical Representative for Laticrete International:

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LATICRETE® SpectraLOCK PRO™ Grout

Let me give you some tips.

edit: Links dead. All info is available on Laticrete's site.

I can't say it better than our how to sheet: Directly quoted:

Before you Begin:
■ Follow adhesive manufacturer’s recommendations for minimum cure time prior to grouting.
■ LATICRETE® SpectraLOCK PRO™ Grout is a sanded grout. Use of sanded grouts in joints less than 1/8” (3mm) will result in a coarser surface texture as compared to wider joints.
■ Do not add water or any other materials to the grout mixture. Do not re-temper with water. This will have an adverse effect on the product and void all warranties.
■ Clean-up is critical. Prepare for the initial and final washes by having 2 pails of clean water ready for the clean up process.

Preparation and Installation Tools:
■ Broom/vacuum (remove debris)
■ Utility Knife (removes excess thin-set in joints, open A & B pouches)
■ Clean water and sponges (to clean surface of tile)
■ Firm edged, rubber epoxy grout float
■ Margin trowel
■ Low speed drill and grout mix paddle (optional - you can hand mix)
■ Empty pails

Clean-up Supplies:
■ Fresh water supply
■ Extra Sponges (for floor installation -we give you 1 per full unit.)
■ Terry cloth towels (optional for wall clean up)
■ Empty pails

Surface Preparation:
■ Ensure the tile surface has no residual film from adhesive setting material.
■ FOR YOUR TRAVERTINE: The use of a topical sealer or grout release applied to unglazed porcelain tile, abrasive, non-slip or rough textured tiles or porous tile or stone surfaces before grouting will facilitate cleaning. *SAME ADVISE FOR REGULAR GROUT.*
■ LATICRETE SpectraLOCK PRO Grout, as well as other sanded grouts, may “scratch” glass tiles, soft or polished marble and stone, soft glazed and handmade tiles. Test grout on a small area to ensure compatibility.
■ Test stone for compatibility with water and cleaning additive mixture.
■ Epoxy resins may affect the color of porous stone. Verify results with a test area. Hence the sealer..
■ Make sure tile surface and open grout joints are clean, and free from debris, grout spacers or standing water.
■ Surface temperature range for installation must be above 40°F and less than 95°F.

Working Time:
Working time of grout is approximately 80 minutes at 70°F after the components are thoroughly mixed. Please note that working time is affected by many variables including grout mix consistency, surface and room
temperatures. Warmer climates, for example, will shorten working time, while colder conditions will extend working time.

Mixing:
■ Cut open Part A and B pouches, and our the liquids (A first, then B) into a
clean pail. Make sure to squeeze all the liquids out of the pouches.
NOTE: Fold in half and roll up like a toothpaste tube.
■ Mix liquids thoroughly, completely blending all liquid from sides and bottom of pail. Mix with a margin trowel or slow speed drill mixer (< 300 RPM).
■ Once blended, add Part C Color powder to blended A and B liquids and mix thoroughly with margin trowel or slow speed drill mixer (< 300 RPM). The LATICRETE SpectraLOCK PRO Grout unit is designed to use all the Part C Color powder for most applications. For narrow joints, it is acceptable to leave out up to 10% Part C color powder to produce a more fluid mix.

Grouting:
■ After surfaces are cleaned, allow to dry thoroughly before grouting.
■ Spread grout using a sharp edged, firm epoxy rubber float. Work the
grout diagonally across the joints,packing them full.
■ “Cut” excess grout off the tile surface using the edge of the float held at a 90° angle like a squeegee, stroking diagonally to avoid pulling grout out of filled joints.

Initial Wash:
NOTE: Have cleaning water, new clean sponge and initial wash cleaning additive packet ready.
■ Once grout has been spread, wait 20–30 minutes before cleaning (or within one hour of initial mixing of product).
Wait longer at colder temperatures.
Add initial wash cleaning additive to two gallons of clean water and mix until fully dissolved.
Submerge clean sponge into water and wring until damp.
**If you have a dripping sponge it's too wet.**
Change water with cleaning additive mixture every 50 ft2 when using multiple units.
■ Wipe grout joints and tile surface in a light circular motion, loosening grout
residue while making the joints smooth.
■ Drag a clean sponge diagonally over the scrubbed surfaces to remove grout residue. Rinse sponge after every pass; use each side of sponge only once between rinsing. Discard sponges when they become “gummy” with residue. Check work as you clean. Repair any low spots with additional grout.

Wall Applications:
■ If grout bleeds or sags out of joint, stop immediately and wait an additional 15 minutes for grout to firm up before washing. Or you may add more Part C Color powder if you held some back.
■ Instead of a sponge, the use of a damp, well wrung, folded terry cloth towel can be helpful to remove excess grout while smoothing joints less than 1/8” on walls. Use light pressure when using folded terry cloth towel.
■ Certain tiles clean up more easily than others, so be sure to rinse sponge frequently, checking your work as you progress.

Final Inspection & Cleaning:

■ Begin final cleaning approximately one hour after initial wash has taken place. Prepare another 2 gallons of clean water and pour in the final wash cleaning additive packet, mix fully.
■ Follow the same process as the initial wash but use the clean white scrub pad in place of the sponge to break apart any leftover
residue. Rinse scrub pad frequently.
■ Then, drag a clean sponge diagonally over the scrubbed surfaces to remove froth and residue. Use each side of sponge only once before rinsing and change water and cleaning additive mixture at least every 50 ft2 when using multiple units.
■ Allow cleaned areas to dry and inspect tile/stone surface. For persistent grout film/haze (within 24 hours), scrub area with mixture of two gallons clean water and 4 oz. white vinegar. Conduct a test area to verify results on polished stones.
■ Rinse with clean water and allow surface to dry.
Inspect grout surface and repair as required with freshly mixed grout.

I'm sorry for the long post, but you never know who might have this question, so I've got to do it right.

You'll notice that other than the mixing procedures it installs very similarly to regular grout.

You prep, you mix, you let it firm up (Haze), you dress the joint, you wash, you final wash. Only you NEVER have to seal.

Email or call me if you need more help in the field:
Ron Nash
Laticrete International
(203) 671-0057 Cell
rnash@laticrete.com

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[Mike2]

Again from Rob Nash, a write-up on haze removal.

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This is adapted from out Haze Removal Datasheet:

The best way to alleviate the residue in the first place is to ensure that a final wash is done the same day that the grout is installed. If you use a terrycloth towel to dry glossy tiles before you leave the job you will have best results.

If you leave water spots you may have haze. If you are the type of guy that does a ton of cheese cloth buffing on regular grout.... you want to be a bit cleaner on the second wash.

SpectraLOCK Pro isn't sticky, it's kind of oilly. It's pretty easy to clean up if you have haze. 100X easier than our regular SpectraLOCK (old version only sold in Mini units at Lowes - Thank the Lord.)

Within 24 hours for LATICRETE SpectraLOCK Pro Grout, 12 hours LATAPOXY 2000 Industrial Epoxy Grout, and 24 hours for LATAPOXY SP-100 Stainless Grout for Floors N' Walls, the tiles should be cleaned with a new sponge or nylon pad with soapy water (clear liquid dishwashing detergent works best). Add a bit of White Vinegar and SpectraLOCK Part C Colorant Powder.

Liquid Electric Dishwashing detergent with a nylon scrub pad can also be used on LATICRETE SpectraLOCK Grout and LATAPOXY SP-100 Stainless Grout for Floors N' Walls within 24 hours of the grout installation.

Good results have been achieved by using one of the following cleaners for installations that are older than 24 hours:

Mask off the work area to protect adjacent finished surfaces. Follow the manufacturer’s application instructions.

• The Miracle Company – Epoxy Grout Film Remover (800) 350-1901
• The Miracle Company – H20 Strip (800) 350-1901
• Aqua Mix – Sealer & Adhesive Remover (800) 366-6877
• Dominion Restoration – Petra 7 (800) 835-4456
• Stone Tech – Heavy Duty Coating Stripper (888) 786-6343
• Walter Legge Company – Legge Stripper/Tex Spar (800) 345-3443

For stubborn film that also includes part C filler powder use a commercial gel type water cleanable paint remover (e.g. Zip Strip, Strip Eze, Red Devil, Jasco), and scrub with a nylon pad to dislodge the haze. Always conduct a small test area to verify results. Do not over expose the grout joints to these cleaners.

Neutralize the effects of the cleaners by thoroughly rinsing the floors with either TSP or a solution of baking soda and clean water. Then rinse thoroughly with clean water. WARNING/ CAUTION: Strong detergent solutions require eye protection and gloves.

Another alternative that can be used for tiles that will not scratch:

• Use Electric Dishwasher Detergent Powder Type (Cascade/Electrosol, etc...). 1/4 cup (0.059 Liters) per 3.5 gallon (13.2 Liters) pail of warm water. Wet floor with a mop (liberally) and apply the dishwasher detergent /water solution. Then broadcast silica sand over the floor. Use a buffing machine with a white 3M pad and make several passes over the floor. Next, vacuum up the solution and sand with a wet vac. Rinse well with clean water. Repeat process as required.

• Thoroughly rinse area with clean water to insure that all the detergent solution has been removed.

• The cleaners listed above can also be used with sand and then agitated with a nylon scrub pad.

To ensure good results and compatibility with the tile or stone, always verify results with a small test area.

The best way to avoid grout haze is to do a thorough cleaning the day of the installation.

Try the non-chemical version of the above first.

Nash

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[Mike2]

I stumbled across this today while looking for something else. From the Laticrete website, a SpectraLock Grout Troubleshooting Guide.

edit: Link dead. Here's a link to Laticrete's FAQ troubleshooting guide on Spectralock.


Among other things it answers the question: Will SpectraLock grout stick to itself? A relevant question if some of your grout joints are not fully filled and you want to add more at a later point in time.


----------------------------

P.S. The answer is yes, SpectraLock will stick to itself.

[Chris the Rep]

Sorry for the delay, sometimes things come up. Here is my long winded response, probably more than you ever wanted to know on the subject.

The urethane referred to for expansion joints is a type of caulk. It's usually in the caulk aisle, but I have seen it in the professional contractors section of some stores, or it'll be near the concrete stuff. Urethane caulk suitable for floors will be marked with minimum Shore A Hardness 35, which denotes traffic grade sealant. You may find it in large 30 oz. cartridges, which are usually pourable/self-leveling versions.

Unfortunately, your chances of finding it in anything close to a red are pretty unlikely. Limestone or gray are pretty much the standard colors available in traffic grade sealants.

Now, if you're willing to venture beyond the local big box store, you can probably get a urethane in a red color. There are two part urethane caulks available in almost any color you want. Some manufacturers will even color match for you, never hurts to ask. The supplier carries the main unit, (base and catalyst) and stocks color packs for the most common colors. They can usually can get a color pack for unique colors on short notice. (A color pack is usually about 4-8 oz. of a special pigment that is added when the whole thing is mixed up.) Typically, these units are one and a half gallons of mixed material. You have to mix the whole unit at once, there is no measuring out partial units. A unit this size will probably do a couple hundred feet of joints that measure 1/4" x 1/4".

My local yellow pages has a heading "Caulking Materials and Equipment". You can also check under "Contractors Equipment and Supplies", or "Concrete Accessories". Sometimes ready mix concrete suppliers carry these sealants. Wherever you get the caulk will also carry the backer rod you'll need. Between the yellow pages and the web, you shoudn't have any trouble finding a source of supply.

The "compressible backing strip" is more commonly called backer rod. It is usually in the the caulk aisle as well, sold in a small coil in a bag. It's kind of like a foam rope that is put into the joint so you don't use too much caulk. There are different diameters available, and two types.

There is open cell foam, often called "denver foam, and is a lot like the foam used in a furniture cushion. If you can stuff a 1" diameter piece of denver foam into a 1/4" joint, it'll work fine. Open cell works great for indoor use, and if you cut it or tear it while your installing it, it won't matter. Open cell foam will wick water, so it is usually used indoors and occasionally on vertical applications.

Closed cell foam does the same thing, but is a little more unforgiving when you install it. The "closed cells" contain nitrogen gas, and if you pierce the cells and then caulk, the gas works it's way to the surface and causes bubbles in the surface of the caulk. The same thing happens of you try to compress too large a diameter rod into a joint too small. Buy closed cell foam close to the size of your joint as possible. Closed cell foam won't wick water, so it is often used on horizontal surfaces. If the caulk is damaged, the closed cell foam acts as a secondary water stop. You want to make sure that you have backer rod in every gap where you're going to pour in sealant, other wise the sealant will flow through or beyond any gaps. And it's a real PITA to clean up if it goes where you don't want it to go.

Why go through all this?

1. You can probably get the color you want.

2. You can get this caulk in a pourable, self leveling formula, which will go in a lot faster, and will cure a lot faster than a gun grade material. Install the backer rod, mask all of the joints, mix the caulk, pour it into the joints. Tooling is a lot easier and faster too. To make pouring easier and more precise, bend a small coffee can to create a spout, and pour from that. I think that's a lot easier than crawling around with a caulking gun.

3. You'll get a joint that is tough enough for a shopping mall floor that will last many years without tearing or shrinking, in a color you wanted, not one you settled for.

Some of the brand names you might look for are Tremco, Vulkem, Sonneborn, Sika, or Bostik Chem-Calk. They're all good ones.

edit: Removed dead links

Ok, I'm done.

Chris

[bc brick john]

Hi All

here is a list of X- reference grout colors

from

Laticrete - Mapei

Laticrete - TEC

Laticrete - Custom

hope this helps out

[bc brick john]

Hi all
here is a up-date

please use for guidelines purposes

thanks to JB and HR

[cx]

Here is MAPEI's Grout Troubleshooting Guide.