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Unread 05-30-2010, 10:52 AM   #31
Shawn Prentice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
As far as lead in ceramics ... the RRP rule has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's for disturbing paint in pre-'78 homes - PAINT, NOT TILE.
You are correct and I mentioned this earlier. But, if the old ceramics you are demolishing have lead in them and lead dust is released during the process, you can contaminate the work area as well as the client's home.

If your client and/or their children get poisoned, you will be liable for releasing lead dust in the customer's home whether it's covered under RRP or not.

Contractors haven't had many problems with this issue due to the fact that people don't know...yet. But, homeowners (and attorneys) are becoming more and more aware of the RRP rule and the dangerous effects of lead dust released during construction activities in their homes. All they would have to do is get a blood test after the work is done that shows elevated levels of lead and call an attorney. Did the lead poisoning come from the construction work? Maybe, maybe not, but how much will it cost a contractor in legal fees to defend him/herself? A contractor won't have a chance at all if no precautions were taken and documented.

I, like Dean, didn't know much about lead dangers until I became more knowledgeable on the subject. Now, I take it seriously. Even in my own 1913 home and I have no kids.

And, if you know about lead safe work practices, a dust mask won't cut it alone. The danger of contamination in the case of removing old tiles doesn't come from kids eating tile chips, it's from the dust created during breakage. That dust will be carried out of the work area on clothing, by air currents, on tools used, on trash receptacles, etc. Then it can be circulated through the house via the duct work. It can settle on the floor only to be stirred up when someone walks by or a kid is playing. Etc.

Like I said, one can take from this what they will and do things how they like, but the dangers of lead are real and the legal liability of contractors is increasing.
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Unread 05-30-2010, 11:03 AM   #32
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Shawn,

Nowhere did I say that lead poisoning is not serious. This RRP thing is not being administered seriously:

-They have no approved lead test for gypsum board unless that has just changed.

-Insurance companies have no idea how to write a policy for this ... that's if it's required in the first place.

-RRP containment practices are basically half-assed mold containment. Which is more serious?

-The people who have "found god" over how serious of an issue lead is (it is a serious issue) are usually ones who see $$$ in becoming lead inspectors.


I find it difficult to take anything administered by the EPA as being done so in the interest of human safety rather than money. If it was, Virginia wouldn't not be repeatedly blown to bits in the name of coal while turning their streams and rivers into toxic cesspools that have much more danger than lead.

I also heard something about an oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico...
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Unread 05-30-2010, 11:13 AM   #33
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Also, the blood test thing is more complicated than that ... lead values need a baseline. So the individual would need to be tested just prior renovation in addition to post renovation. So unless someone is setting up to sue ....
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Unread 05-30-2010, 12:58 PM   #34
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I know lead is dangerous but I am confused about the dirt analogy. If your test showed you had less lead than that which is found in dirt, why would it matter?
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Unread 05-30-2010, 01:22 PM   #35
Shawn Prentice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
So unless someone is setting up to sue ....
That is the point of my post where it concerns contractors. All it takes is one unscrupulous attorney and a frivolous lawsuit and many of us would be out of business whether we are innocent or not. I'm just saying even though ceramics aren't include, be careful.

BTW, only the first two sentences of my last post were commenting on the quote from your post, the rest was in general for everyone. Sorry, I should have been more clear.
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Unread 05-30-2010, 01:53 PM   #36
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Also, concerning lead levels in the blood. A blood test will only show recent exposure to lead, in the past few months. So, if there was recent work done on the house, elevated lead in the blood could be attributed to that. Anything beyond that will require a bone lead test.
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Unread 05-30-2010, 06:24 PM   #37
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Well, after all the new (around here) lead awareness and concern, maybe it would be easier to just treat the demo part of projects like asbestos abatement. Double layer 6mil poly everything, wet down everything, no dust... just sayin.
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Unread 05-31-2010, 05:23 PM   #38
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Quote:
All it takes is one unscrupulous attorney and a frivolous lawsuit and many of us would be out of business whether we are innocent or not.
OK so if we warn the customers of the dangers is that going to be construed as an admission of guilt since we were aware of the dangers and acted neglegent by not having a lead abatement company perform the removal?

I don't see a reason to start a widespread panic over this..we can keep people and kids away from demos without scaring them to death and possibly creating another greatly exaggerated epidemic like the mold and asbestos...once the laywers get involved the dangers suddenly become more severe.

Im just going to make sure to plastic off the area and keep folks away and keep my mouth shut..as for me I probably won't bother with any personal protection other then I do now. After all the dust and crap I have already injested a little lead exposure doesn't scare me much...im more worried about drinking out of plastic cups and aluminum cans
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Unread 05-31-2010, 06:10 PM   #39
Shawn Prentice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim
OK so if we warn the customers of the dangers is that going to be construed as an admission of guilt since we were aware of the dangers and acted neglegent by not having a lead abatement company perform the removal?

You don't need a lead abatement company. First, you don't know you're dealing with lead unless you tested. Even if it was tested, as long as the purpose is not to remove the tile because of the lead, but rather to change the tile to a different one, then it is not abatement.

It is up to each individual as to what or how much they decide to do, if anything. This is my approach:

I would do a modified version of RRP, unless the job is under the RRP rule. Plastic off the doorway and supply air vent, N-100 dust mask, and hepa vacuum the room at the least when finished ( and yourself/tools if necessary.) You could even vacuum dust off the debris buckets and cover them before removal from the work area.

The above are basic precautions anyone would take if they didn't want dust from their work spread throughout the client's home and wanted to protect themselves (no dust, lead or otherwise, is good to inhale.)
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Last edited by Shawn Prentice; 05-31-2010 at 08:05 PM. Reason: Add: supply air vent, hepa
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Unread 05-31-2010, 06:34 PM   #40
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And if you remember, the instructors say, that most of the lead contamination comes from opening and closing windows
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Unread 06-02-2010, 08:46 PM   #41
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Like in the initial thread, I'll say my $.02 and move on...

The way Big Brother is going, with lead, asbestos, etc., it's gonna be cheaper for people wanting to remodel older homes doing it "by the book" to tear the things down and start from scratch pretty soon.

I'm not gonna lie. I'm not going to do anything different that I ever have either. Seal off the work area as much as possible and work responsibly. Common sense should go plenty far in keeping everyone safe.

I'm just getting tired of the same getting beat to death on this subject. Think about it. How many products that we use right now probably cause cancer but we just haven't 'figured it out" yet. That's just a reality of the world we live in today as much as it sucks.

If the EPA wants to bust a one man show like me, so be it. Maybe I can say the hell with it and be one of the 'men in black" too then.
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Unread 06-03-2010, 06:45 PM   #42
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Well, whatever your opinion may be ... more and more homeowners and DIY will hear about it each day, whether we like it or not.

With tens of thousands Lead Safe Certified Firms giving estimates each week and letting homeowners know about this new law (they are required too) ... the general public is getting informed.

What I'm finding out, is that when I give estimates a small minority of homeowners are interested. However, when I talk with homeowners who have recently had construction work done and were not given the opportunity to hear about this ... the vast majority are angry with their contractor.

These homeowners wonder why they weren't even given the opportunity to hear about this subject and to decide for themselves if this was an important issue or not.

On a personal note (I've mentioned this before), many months ago I went on an estimate where the owners had done their own demo. Just out of curiosity, I took a piece of the demo sheetrock. It tested positive for lead. Long story short, their little girl had a high blood lead level. She got permanent damage.

I feel that at least these particular DIYers would have been glad to have been warned.
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Unread 06-05-2010, 02:19 AM   #43
Shawn Prentice
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A new question on the EPA site :

Does the RRP Rule apply to renovations that disturb ceramic tile where the glaze on the tile contains lead at regulated levels?

Answer
Yes. Renovations that disturb paint or other surface coatings that contain lead at regulated levels must be performed in accordance with the RRP Rule.


http://toxics.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/t...i=&p_topview=1

I am guessing this is like any other painted surface where if you don't test, you are required to take the precautions as if the tile did contain lead.
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Unread 06-05-2010, 06:40 AM   #44
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Shawn,

You taught me something new.

The 6 foot exception would not apply here, since taking off one tile would be considered demolition. Seems like all tile guys will need to be Certified Firms, unless they work on 1978 or newer homes.
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Unread 06-05-2010, 08:19 AM   #45
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Dean, I stumbled upon that looking for an answer to another question and learned something new myself. I don't ever recall seeing anything mentioned specifically about tile in the rule, but I guess we now know this applies:

745.82(a)(1) and 745.82(a)(2) states ...

"... that the components affected by the renovation are free of paint or other surface coatings that contain lead equal to or in excess of 1.0 milligrams/per square centimeter (mg/cm2 ) or 0.5% by weight ..."

And, if you don't test it, then you treat the material accordingly.
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