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Unread 09-22-2013, 07:18 PM   #1
TonE
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How Do You Sell It

I love all the new concepts in Moisture management.
There are many.From the liquids to the sheet goods seems everyone has there favorites an I even noticed a few frankenhybrids :-) that where very interesting.
My question is how do you get the customer to anti up for this New Method and the increase of protection.
I can't help to feel like a snake oil salesman when I approach them of the benefits of keeping moisture out of the mud beds. From penetrating cement grout joints. The price seems to be similar for the liquids and the membranes like kerdi. I have done maybe 30 kerdi installations so far. Being the typical oc type tiler I have to admit they are not easy. they take time.Sems like the liquids are easier. lets say I have a house coming up with 5 large showers.
Pan sizes range from 44x68 an up. So we are talking over 150 sf of moisture management material in each one. My estimated costs run from 4 k for the five wet areas. And that's doing it on the cheap. I'm going to give the hydro ban a shot with a kerdi over the mud pan. Yes the hybrid.
How do I approach the homeowner to tell them the method used for years was no good And this one will be so much better and healthier for them.
I know the mold thing holds lots of weight. Especially in this area since sandy.
What other sales pitches can I use to get them to pony up for what I know is a better job. When they are already spending lots.
At a kerdi seminar the rep mentioned how the mud base actually changes in PH do to the use of neutralizing shampoos and conditioners. Making mud pans basically mold factories. I like that one. Is it true.
Lots of smart folks on here. Hope to pick some of your minds.
Thanks in advance..
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Unread 09-22-2013, 07:24 PM   #2
TonE
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BTW I robbed/borrowed the term Moisture Management from an article I read.
Written by Dave G.
I liked it as opposed to waterproofing.
Water proofing seems to imply that there shower will leak without the use of these membranes. That's not why they want me to do the job.
Man that guy uses a lot of big woids.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 07:44 PM   #3
tilelayer
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Tyler,

Where you located? Its easy to sell show them pictures from the worst tile job thread of leaky showers. Take a carboard box and line the whole thing with kerdi let it cure and fill it with water, it wont leak. Bring this to a clients house and show them this.

In my area the plumber does the pan I tell my client you save money on the pan and put it toward the kerdi. I have people using kerdi who used the old school method for years, they love how the pan doesn't come loose from the walls and turn into a sponge, and they love how the band in the corners prevents any cracks and callbacks to caulk the corners.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 07:46 PM   #4
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Tyler, had you been to an old job where weeps were clogged with calcium/lime scale? That would be one pitch, no maintenance.

I however, instead of trying to sale/explain a product , i focus more on saleing myself and my knowledge to the customer. With emphasis on using the best materials for "their" application.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 07:53 PM   #5
dhagin
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Here's the "worst thread".

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=71950

I believe there's plenty of photos in there of jobs where they forgot to backbutter, skipped water proofing, and there might even be some JMJ's too.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 08:02 PM   #6
Tiger Mountain Tile Inc
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I don't like how the question is framed.

Are we trying to get the customer to buy something that they don't want? If that's true, why not sell them a niche also with every shower? Surely they just don't understand why they need it.

One way to sell it is to specialize in a system and only do that system. If they don't want it they can get someone else. That way you sell it to every customer.

Another way is to ask questions to see if your moisture management solution will solve their problem.

It's my experience that when you try to "sell" the customer on something all that you accomplish is selling them on your competition.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 08:15 PM   #7
Brad Denny
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Tyler,
I feel in the residential market you are selling yourself more than you are products. In the commercial realm, yes, convincing an architect to switch to a certain product other than what is specified you are selling a product, but not the case when dealing one on one with a homeowner. Most of the time they haven't done much research, and if they have they're likely to have a glazed over look from the options that are out there. Trying to explain in detail why you'd like to use one product over the other could result in confusion, so keeping it simple is important. Letting the customer know you are...

1. Established
2. Reputable
3. Knowledgeable
4. Dependable
5. Concerned about the longevity of their installation
and last, but not least
6. Less than willing to compromise on quality to save on price

...says a lot to them about what they are going to get and goes further than technical jargon or photos that they may be suspicious about. Not all, because this is an age of information and some people like to be overwhelmed with facts and figures, gotta feel them out.

In #6 I say "less than willing" rather than "unwilling" because we all have to eat and some people can be made to understand they are getting what they pay for if they are unwilling to shell out for quality. You gotta put food on the table, just make sure everyone knows what they are getting.

I do feel that surface applied waterproofing water management systems do keep the showers drier and less prone to mold. It just makes sense that it does. I usually give a short statement that "historically, water was managed under 1.5" of mortar, but now there are products that allow it to be done directly under the tile and on top of that 1.5" of mortar, making your shower dry faster and less prone to mold". Occasionally they want more, but usually that suffices.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 08:48 PM   #8
Kilauea
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Tyler-

Lemme apologize here for some of these long over "emphasized" posts.That is waay too much info.(yes you,Brad)

The answer is simple.

Surface applied membranes are just a superior systems when it comes to moisture management.

How?

The moisture stops at the surface.No need to wick thru the cbu,to the moisture membrane (roofing felt),down to the panliner(over your preslope),to the weep holes,and maybe eventually your saturated mudbed will bleed out the water thru the peagravel.

How long will this process take?.....What if you take multiple showers a day?

Common sense tells you,that proper construction of these types of showers needs alot more time to expel moisture.Lets just imagine that soaking wet wonderboard sandwiched between the tile and roofing felt dripping down to a mudbed thats already soaked.

My teenage boys can explain this process to a consumer,and they are neither ^established or ^reputable.Im just sayin,lets keep it relevant.

Now the question is cost.How much will sheet be opposed to liquid?Aha.The liquid is more cost efficient.

Lets keep it simple.

Hope that helps.

You can call me,too.My # 903.258.3462.Id love to chat w you about this
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Unread 09-22-2013, 08:59 PM   #9
Brad Denny
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It just looks like a lot onna smartphone LT , and I bet you didn't even read it.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 09:02 PM   #10
TonE
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Thanks LT,
I like your signature.

Reminds of a Farside I once noticed.
"While they are generally forgotten.
Lambini and Sons are credited for tiling the Sistine Chapel floor."
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Unread 09-22-2013, 09:03 PM   #11
Kilauea
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I did read it.Im sittin in my office trying to find an exciting JB read,while my family watches some boring ww Z movie.

I do 90% SSA membranes and understand this man's predictament.The answers are very simple.Im confused why it wasnt nailed already from the "vets".

On to UFC.com
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Unread 09-22-2013, 09:16 PM   #12
Brad Denny
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I understand too, tiled a shower for someone once.
My point was that most people don't care what you put in, as long as it works and lasts. You start out too technical, that's when it sounds like you're introducing snake oil. My opinion. If they ask why you're high, then tell them, but no need to overwhelm from the start.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 09:23 PM   #13
TonE
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I did the numbers on cost.
The liquids are about the same price per sf as the sheet or the kerdi I am familiar with.
Big factor is labor While I have not used the liquid yet I have painted. who hasn't. I can only do one kerdi shower this size per day. And that's movin.
I figure I can do more than that with the liquid with a lot less effort.
No waste with the liquid either. No little sample pcs you end up with when your done.
I would bet I could take my family out to a nice dinner with all of the ones I have thrown away.. It adds up. At least that what I am thinking.
Dave mentioned in the article that more water comes out of a modern day shower head than a rain forest sees in a year. With no where to exit but the drain. Lots of that moisture gets left behind.
You ever open the door of a steam shower. You know the sealed door type. Any good tile man has noticed how it takes your breath away.. The moisture never leaves that environment.
I come highly recommended on this particular job. So I don't have to sell em on the tile work. they know my capabilities. I want to approach them on this as I feel it is important.
how do I tell em the price of the job will increase roughly 8 percent. for moisture management.
This one is important.I view it as a gateway project.To a new era.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 09:27 PM   #14
Brad Denny
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Is it a steamer?
Sounds like you have a pretty good argument locked and loaded. If they know your reputation, hopefully they'll trust your judgement as well.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 09:35 PM   #15
jwmezzanotte
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Ive never had to sell waterproofing before, people just expect it in wet areas. Or at least assume its been done (a lot of times locally it hasnt. Or at least not properly)
Ive moved away from kerdi, unless its specificaly asked for. Which is rare.
Im now using a kerdi drain with aquadefence and mapei reinforcing fabric in the pan.
When I tile a tub surround I bond a strip of kerdi to the flange with k-fix and then paint over that and the backer with aquadefence.

Not following manufactures recommendations, no. But Im comfortable with it, and its way less work for me than using kerdi, so labour cost is much cheaper. I do sometimes still use kerdi on a mud pan to get away from waiting a few days to cure. Everytime I have explained myself to a customer (the few that ask) it doesnt take much convincing.

That said, its about time I switch to hydroban and use their drain. Keep meaning to look into it.
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