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Unread 05-30-2009, 01:23 PM   #1
orangetones
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Steve's 12x24 Running Bond Project Part 2

I am estimating for the purchase of 12x24 tiles to cover approximately 183 sq ft. Should I go ahead and order 10% more, bringing me up to ~200 sq ft? Or do I need to estimate higher because I am laying this in a brick pattern. Last time I estimated a job it was very small and quite easy for me to see exactly where my cuts would be and how much I needed. This time the layour is in a kitchen and a front entranceway/hallway/powder room.

Any help you guys can provide would be appreciated.
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Unread 05-30-2009, 01:42 PM   #2
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You may want to factor a tad over 10% since they are 24 inch pieces, depending on the layout you may use more or less. Maybe go 10% and goto whatever the carton count takes you.
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Unread 05-30-2009, 01:50 PM   #3
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15% and wherever the carton takes you. Maybe you will get lucky and have 5% left over in case you need to make a repair down the road.

Either way let us know how it goes, I would be curious to see if you come up short or if you went over and by how much.
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Unread 05-30-2009, 02:58 PM   #4
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Welcome back, Orangetones. Again, please put a first name in a permanent signature line for us to use.

Buying too much tile for a project can cost you a little extra; buying too little tile for a project can be expensive.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 05-30-2009, 06:14 PM   #5
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Thanks for the info. I have to look at my potential layout and see about the waste, but yes, I agree 15% would definitely do it for insurance purposes.

Laying brick pattern and having the large tiles is a reason for more than 10%.

I am going to have to see how the pattern pans out. There may be an issue with going into the powder room from the hallway. I will ask if I have questions about that.

Thanks.
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Unread 05-30-2009, 06:23 PM   #6
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I can pretty much assure you that 15% is the number and wherever the carton stops.

If you had 1000 square feet I would say you would be fine with 10%. But small area cut up like that, I would go with 15%. I always have a box of at least 2 tile left over on a job like that.
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Unread 05-30-2009, 06:24 PM   #7
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You might want to check how flat those tiles are before you install them on a running bond. Some large tiles can have a slight curve to them and give you some issues with lippage. If you are Ok with it then no problem.
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Unread 05-30-2009, 06:30 PM   #8
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What substrate build up do I need?

Here is the situation...

I have this Sturd-I-Floor that is 19/32 as floor sheeting. It reccomends joist spacing of 20"OC. You can see it in the attached photos.

The joists are those newer style 2x3 with strand board style I structure. There is no marking on them, so I am not sure what their stiffness is or their rating. They are 1 1/2" by 2 3/8" (actual) pieces with the standboard inbetween. The total height of each joist is 9 3/8". They are spaced 19" OC.


Under the kitchen there is an unsupported span of 13' 5", the tile will be in an area that goes from the foundation towards the steel I-beam about 9' 6" of that 13' 5". The kitchen goes 12 feet in the other direction.

In the halway I am doing, there is an unsupported span that is 13' 5" long again but only 32" wide. The other part of the hallyway has an unsupported span of only 64" as the joists there ride over the steel I-beam and the foundation of the unexcavated garage.

So... I have sheet vinyl in there now and have to see if it is perimeter glued, or if I have to try to take up the 1/4 luan that is underneath it.

What do you folks reccomend for a build up under 12x24 tile that will be laid there.

I only ask because you folks are very knowledgeable, and the deflecto doesn't work with my materials!

I have tiled before without problem, but that was in my last house where I had dimensional lumber in the structure and some smaller overall spaces.

So... What do you folks think...
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Unread 05-30-2009, 07:09 PM   #9
Brian in San Diego
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Steve,

The 1/4" Luan definitely has to go. It has no place in a tile installation. I have no way of knowing what your deflection with the engineered joists is. Are the drawings in the picture the drawings for the house? Do you have the original specs? I am ASSUMING the joists were engineered for at least an L/360 rating. That guess being made you still need to beef up that subfloor. If you are going to put down Ditra, their minimum over 19.2" engineered joists is 3/4" T&G. I think you need to add 3/8" CC or better exposure 1 plywood over your current subfloor properly placed and screwed according to schedule.

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Unread 05-30-2009, 07:14 PM   #10
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So, assuming the joists were engineered for L/360, I would just need 3/8 ply of the grade you suggested at minimum and then I could use Ditra. What about 3/8 ply and then 1/4 concrete board?

Those aren't drawings in the picture. It is the left over sheet vinyl from the original owner. The house was built in 1997 here in Ottawa, On, Canada. Pretty modern...

Last edited by orangetones; 05-30-2009 at 07:24 PM.
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Unread 05-30-2009, 07:23 PM   #11
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I checked the Liberry and if the I-beams are also Nordbord ( a distinct possibility), then the floor should be rated for L/480 with the 19/32" material.

If it helps, the sturd-i-floor material appears to be glued and fastened properly.
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Unread 05-30-2009, 08:24 PM   #12
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Sal,

I assume you mean that some of those tiles are cup shaped? or dome shaped? leading to an issue with uneveness from tile to tile. Could you be more specific if I am not following you there?

Any other folks have much experience laying 12x24 in a "running bond" pattern?
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Unread 05-30-2009, 08:28 PM   #13
Brian in San Diego
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Steve,

The subfloor has nothing at all to do with the L/ rating. The L/ rating is the deflection along the length of the joists. The subfloor thickness is for deflection between the joists. You want more than 5/8" nominal plywood between joists that are 19.2" OC. 5/8" nominal plywood is the minimum for joists that are 16" OC. You'll need that layer of 3/8" CC or better. Yes, you can use 1/4" CBU if you prefer.

BTW, is this the same project that you are trying to decide how much tile to buy? If so, we'd like to get it all on one thread if we could. We're not fond of multiple threads for the same project.

Brian
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Unread 05-30-2009, 11:44 PM   #14
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Brian,

No problem on putting things together. If someone can amalgamate these two threads please do so. I just thought that starting a new thread for a new topic (at least sub topic) was the norm as it is elsewhere.

Please do put them together if you can.

I understand that the flooring has nothing to do with the l/ rating. I meant that the engineered I-beams might also be Nordbord product, and that they would at minimum be the above mentioned L/ rating even for their lowest rated product at 9 1/2" over 13'5".

I guess I have now my answre for the build up.

Next question is:

I am going to be putting hardwood in at the same time. Assuming we start from the same 19/32 OSB and I build up the floor with 3/8 ply, then 1/4 concrete board. Can I add 1/8 for the mortar between the concrete board and ply, and then 1/8 for the mortar under the tile, and then 3/8 for the tile. This brings the tile up to 1 1/4" above the OSB.

Next part... with 3/4 hardwood (prefinished) I would put 1/2" ply under it and I would have tile that is at the same height as the hardwood without the need for a reducer.

This is all based on my above calculations. Am I correct in estimating 1/8 for the mortar above? How would you folks do youur planning for this kind of thing?

Lastly, would you put the hardwood in first and then tile up to it or tile and then put the hardwood in? My first thought is wood and then tile as the tile is easier to manipulate considering the slight play you have with the grout lines.

Thoughts? and sorry for so many questions. This is just the largest job I have done to date.

Cheers,

Steve
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Unread 05-31-2009, 06:46 AM   #15
Brian in San Diego
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Steve,

Your calculations are probably close but knowing exactly how much five layers of "stuff" is going to add to a subfloor is tough to get exactly right. If you wanted to reduce the height of the installation you could use Ditra instead of CBU and probably save yourself an 1/8". I'm not sure how the pros do it but I think they probably calculate as close as they can and then use a transition if necessary.

I guess it would be possible to lay the tile before you even lay the underlayment for the hardwood and see what you end up with. Then put down your underlayment for the hardwood (using screws, not nails) based on your results.

I checked your other thread. I can merge them but because they way posts get sorted (by time & date) one of your posts would be out of "sync". I think we can leave things the way they are but I would like it if you asked all your future questions for this project on this thread.

Brian
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