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Unread 05-13-2014, 05:36 AM   #1
vilose
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Modified mud job with mesh for porcelain floor tile installation?

Porcelain 12"x12" tile is to be installed on the kitchen and bathroom floors in my new home by a flooring business (this is my contractor's vendor). My contractor told me that the wood sub-floors are suitable for tile.

The flooring store rep told me that the floor tile will be installed using a "modified mud job with mesh." The store rep said that some installers don't use mesh because they are afraid of cutting themselves. He said that he includes a lifetime warranty for the the modified mud job with mesh (tiles/grout won't crack). The rep will not use Ditra.

What is a "modified mud job with wire mesh"?...Is this installation method considered a "jersey mud job"? Does the modified mud job with mesh comply with TCNA guidelines?

Thanks so much for any info and/or advice, as tile needs to be installed very soon.
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Unread 05-13-2014, 06:14 AM   #2
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Yes it is a jersy mud job,
no it doesn't comply with any standards.
send them packing.
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Unread 05-13-2014, 06:36 AM   #3
Davy
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To be sure, I would ask them how thick their modified mud will be. I have heard of guys adding additives to a 1 1/2- 2 inch mud bed, which could be called modified.

But, I'll bet Cain is right.
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Unread 05-13-2014, 11:11 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilose
The rep will not use Ditra.
I'm just curious - did he give a reason?
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Unread 05-13-2014, 11:43 AM   #5
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Welcome, Vilose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilose
My contractor told me that the wood sub-floors are suitable for tile.
If the tiles are to be bonded directly to the plywood subfloor with this "modified mud job with mesh," the subfloor would be suitable only if it consists of two layers of plywood, each of the required type and thickness and each properly, and differently, installed.

If that's the case you don't need the mesh. If that's not the case the Jersey Mud Job is not something you want at all.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 05-13-2014, 07:00 PM   #6
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I don't know much about tile installation, so thank you for all your help. I'll have to find out more specifics (thickness of modified mud; preparation of subfloor)..if they'll even provide me with that info.

My contractor is forcing me to use this flooring store, as this store is written into my contract. If the tile installation is not going to be in compliance with the TCNA guidelines, then what can I do? The tile work is holding up the completion of the kitchen & bathroom.

The flooring company owner didn't give me a reason why he doesn't use ditra; he just doesn't use it in his installations. I asked him over a week ago if this installation is a jersey mud job, and he said he doesn't know what a jersey mud job is. He's been in the flooring business since the 60's, so do most flooring guys in the US know what a jersey mud job is?

I asked my contractor if that company will use a thinset over lath method, and my contractor said for me not to worry about how it's done, since it has a lifetime warranty with the mesh and he's never seen a problem with it. Well, that warranty is not as important to me as having the job done right.

By the way, initially I was going to have my tile and carpeting done by this store, but I couldn't find the specific carpet I want (they sell private-label carpet). So the store owner refused to order the floor tile without my carpet selection from his store, since he needed to know the carpet pile height for the tile-to-carpet transition. Then in a later conversation, he gave me the final price for the tile installation, but as soon as I told him that I was going to order the carpet from a different store (after my contractor was finished with the build), he told me that the cost of the tile job was now going to be priced higher, because I wasn't ordering carpet from him.
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Unread 05-13-2014, 07:11 PM   #7
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While Ditra is a good product, and I like it, there are other methods that work.

Ask the guy to show you the corresponding TCNA installation procedure. This is the industry bible on how to do things correctly that are known to work and last.

Using mesh with just thinset has been proven to not work reliably. That sometimes you get away with it isn't the issue, it's that it doesn't always work...a tile job should not need luck to succeed.
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Unread 05-13-2014, 07:11 PM   #8
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Another question...

Is it a requirement that tile installations in the US comply with the TCNA standards? THANKS.
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Unread 05-13-2014, 07:16 PM   #9
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Vilose,

While I am not a lawyer, I did sleep at a Holiday Inn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilose
as this store is written into my contract
That would be 'restraint of trade' it seems to me.

Quote:
If the tile installation is not going to be in compliance with the TCNA guidelines, then what can I do?
Part of every contract whether it is written in words or not, is the UCC, and applicable state and local law which includes such terms as " contemporary industry standards". When it comes to court, the judge will ask what the contemporary standards are. That is when you whip out your copy of the TCNA. All they will have is, "we've done it this way for 20 years...."

You have some options; 1- Fire these guys and hire someone who knows what the TCNA guidelines are 2- Ask for a fresh copy of their insurance, delivered directly to you from their liability insurer. This is standard practice for the agent, not a big deal at all. Ask the agent if the insurance covers damages from an installation not to current TCNA standards. See if you are happy with his answer. Ask the insurer about claim history. This is not private information. 3- Have your thumb on the 'dial' button ready to call said agent when you negotiate with them advising them you are ready to take step 2. In my fair state you must give these guys the chance to install properly. If not given that chance they can sue for the total amount. If they refuse to install properly, or cannot, then you do not have to pay. But that is best to get in writing, including a release of lien.

As far as pricing games, that's normal. Sad, but normal.
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Unread 05-13-2014, 08:32 PM   #10
vilose
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Thank you ALL so much for your help! I really appreciate it. Houston remodeler, you've been very helpful!

I told my contractor that I didn't want to deal with that flooring company, and he replied that he will not allow other subcontractors on the job site until he has finished and been paid, and this is the flooring company he uses. I cannot get the kitchen & bathroom completed until the floor tile work is done.

I'm going to ask for that store to put in writing that their installation complies with the TCNA guidelines.
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Unread 05-13-2014, 08:41 PM   #11
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They should have no problems signing such a document.

But don't be surprised if they have no idea what the TCNA is or refuse to sign. If they refuse to sign have a second document ready stating they refused to sign and have your witness sign the second document right there in front of them.
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Unread 05-13-2014, 10:30 PM   #12
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Thanks, Houston Remodeler. I'll post an update as soon as I find out whether or not that company will sign a statement that they will install according the TCNA.
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Unread 05-13-2014, 10:46 PM   #13
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I may not always have all the answers, but if a customer asks me why I do something Im always willing to go over it with them. If they prefer something else im willing to hear them out.

"No"
Or
"Dont worry about how its done"

Seem like some pretty sketchy answers. I wouldnt like that if I were the one paying.
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Unread 05-14-2014, 04:49 PM   #14
vilose
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I emailed my contractor to ask him to confirm the type of tile installation, that it must comply with the TCNA guidelines, and to have the flooring place state in writing before the tile job is started that this tile installation fully complies with the TCNA guidelines.

I just got an email from my contractor stating that the flooring place will install my floor tile using "thinset over wire mesh," and the paperwork "will state TCNA guidelines." And there will be a lifetime warranty. He's bringing the paperwork over tomorrow and expects us to sign.

I want to confirm with all of you: Is "thinset over wire mesh" a Jersey mud job? Does the "thinset over wire mesh" installation comply with any TCNA guidelines/standards? I don't know where I can find this info online.

Thank you so much.
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Unread 05-14-2014, 05:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilose
Is "thinset over wire mesh" a Jersey mud job?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilose
Does the "thinset over wire mesh" installation comply with any TCNA guidelines/standards?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilose
I don't know where I can find this info online.
Its not up to you to find if their method is in acordance with TCNA. It is up to THEM to show you that it is.

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