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Old 02-09-2019, 11:28 AM   #61
HS345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac
I encourage you to make a similar test with ardex. The moisture clearly entered areas that was 100% coverage. The fact that the membrane against the drywall had some ridges shouldn't affect the outcome at all, should it? The overlaps had 100% coverage and water still made it through.

But please do your own test and report back. Or don't. I don't really care if you believe me or not. I would have quit these tests long ago if I listened to everyone who told me I was wrong.

This isn't really even a question anymore within the Schluter technical dept. They will tell you kerdi is not meant for submerged applications (I spoke to the director). Why else would they say that ??? Because it leaks if it is submerged. Period.

By the way, your local "territory sales managers" are not part of the "technical department".
None of your comments changes the fact that there are massive voids everywhere in your mock up. Sorry man, nothing personal, just a fact. If you were interested in an honest discussion, you would simply acknowledge what is irrefutable, and move on.

How do you explain the cardboard Kerdi box? I saw it myself, it was full of water and ice for the two days I was at the seminar in 2009. It lasted months, if not years I'm told. Not sure what to tell you.
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Old 02-09-2019, 02:58 PM   #62
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I believe if you want to properly use Kerdi in a submerged application, there is a product that Schluter makes:
https://www.tilefixdirect.com/product/SHKERDI-COL

I am not sure if this has approval here in the U.S. but there is an article by Schluter that describes the construction of an indoor pool in Germany done with Kerdi and Kerdi Coll.
https://www.schlueter.de/media/2018_...hwimmbadHH.pdf

So, it really depends on what your project demands. I guess that for a traditional shower application, regular thinset is apparently sufficient to never cause a problem. I'd think that Schlueter knows that submerged applications won't work with regular thinset. I'd be surprised if they had never studied that.
And I am sure that a test result posted on youtube might be misconstrued. Still, I like Isaac's experiment, trying to push the product to its maximum capacity.
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Old 02-09-2019, 07:09 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by 916tile
But I still wanted to make sure of my findings, so I did another test. That test I did for 7 days, using Laticrete 317 (unmodified) and drywall instead of mortar bed underneath. While the test did perform better (because non-modified has a lower absorption rate than Ardex, and the mortar bed acted as a vehicle to draw the water), the water still made its way under the kerdi into the drywall
Quote:
Originally Posted by 916tile
So even though I was convinced, I still had many doubters that couldn't fathom that Kerdi would do that. I heard it all... Thinset was too loose, too sharp of a drywall knife, not good enough coverage, not enough pressure, etc.etc. So That's why I made the last video (that I just took down), because I knew the Ardex would show the results I expected, in a faster and more substantial way. And even though it is not shown per Schluters recommended guidelines (modified thinset), it is the most common way it is done in my region. I also wanted to throw Schluter a bone to say it's a good reason to use their thinset, and not Ardex. But they didn't take it that way, they thought I was bashing them.

Isaac , I am not sure if the statement in which the unmodified thinset 317 vs. non sag modified X5 has a lower absorption rate is entirely accurate . And in combination with the Kerdi membrane , at the seam junction , I would say they do differ quite '' drastically'' . What I am trying to say is , in terms of compression terms , they really do .

Let's say that you mix both mortars with the same consistency for Kerdi application . I am pretty sure I can definitely squeeze more mortar from under the seam with the 317 than the X-5 . The non sag is not only designed to fight compression , but is also '' fighting back '' when compressed . The X-5 and ardex mortars in general have the best compressive -- non sag -- abilities I've seen while working with non sag mortars , thus the '' inability '' of making the seam within the tolerances -- if they exist -- needed to make the absorption as low as possible when doing the Kerdi seam or similar to the 317.

I would also say that the X-5 would need a looser mix than regular thinset , but the looser we make it , the more will compromise its properties.Even in a looser state , the compressive qualities are still present .

Something to think about while using non sag mortars , if '' delicate '' tolerances or '' tight '' ones are needed .
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Old 02-11-2019, 06:49 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makethatkerdistick
I believe if you want to properly use Kerdi in a submerged application, there is a product that Schluter makes:
Schluter does not make it, they private label it from another manufacturer. You cannot buy it here. Last thing Schluter wants to do is tell us there is another product you need to use if you need your shower to be totally waterproof. Imagine how that would go down.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:04 PM   #65
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Isaac doesn't like Kerdi, Check!


Next...........
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:29 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Mullet
Isaac doesn't like Kerdi, Check!


Next...........
Actually they have great products and works well for most installations. I still use it, but I understand how it performs and it's limitations and make adjustments based on what I know.
That information wasn't given to me at a workshop, or by a sales manager, it was given to me through experience and others who did testing and told me about it.
So ya, if you think this is stupid, move on to the next. But it sounds like a lot of people on this thread got more out of it than "Isaac doesn't like Kerdi". Sorry you didn't.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:45 AM   #67
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i got out of it that it is possible for kerdi to NOT be totally waterproof in a submerged setting. Some people have made me think that you have to be VERY VERY meticulous in your install to make it totally waterproof for submersion, but I am not sure if your same "mistakes" would have made it leak in a normal use setting.

Issac, do you think that SAME setup would have been OK in a shower setting? Even a really heavy use shower like a health club?

Assume you installed it the EXACT same way you did in your test.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:04 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac
Actually they have great products and works well for most installations. I still use it, but I understand how it performs and it's limitations and make adjustments based on what I know.
That information wasn't given to me at a workshop, or by a sales manager, it was given to me through experience and others who did testing and told me about it.
So ya, if you think this is stupid, move on to the next. But it sounds like a lot of people on this thread got more out of it than "Isaac doesn't like Kerdi". Sorry you didn't.
This is what I have learned from this thread.

1. Don't use your shower for a tub.
2. Use the Thin set that is specifically designed for Kerdi.
3. Don't do a 7 day flood test because you are building a shower not a tub.
4. If you are going to install Kerdi for a living why not go to the Schluter shower system class on how to properly install it, you owe it to your paying customers.
5. Never have Isaac install a Kerdi or Redgard shower for me.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:28 AM   #69
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Old 02-12-2019, 03:58 PM   #70
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That's enough bickering. We don't allow it, so please stop it.
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:04 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mullet
This is what I have learned from this thread.

1. Don't use your shower for a tub.
2. Use the Thin set that is specifically designed for Kerdi.
3. Don't do a 7 day flood test because you are building a shower not a tub.
4. If you are going to install Kerdi for a living why not go to the Schluter shower system class on how to properly install it, you owe it to your paying customers.
5. Never have Isaac install a Kerdi or Redgard shower for me.
1. Kerdi is rated for Roman Tubs.
2. I have done tests with similar results with unmodified. But you are correct.
3. See #1.
4. Innovation Workshop part 1. 10/8/15. Reno, NV
5. That's a good one. No comeback for that one
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Old 02-12-2019, 07:06 PM   #72
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While you can choose to believe or not, what I was told at a Schluter Kerdi class in Plattsburg is the following when asked the question about the installation instructions differing in Europe versus the USA:

"In Europe, they try to have one method approved for the EU. Prior to that forming, each country had their idea on what was required when it came to thinsets and shower builds. Modified mortars were often required in many installations in many countries. When they wanted to bring Kerdi to the USA, they only had one agency that they had to convince about their preferred method of installation. They tested, validated, and got approved Kerdi shower construction using unmodified thinsets."

EU has its own thinset specifications, it makes sense that ANSI, being an American one, is not used there. The EU specs differentiate thinsets in more detail than in the USA. Schluter does specify a specific type of modified thinset for use there. They know it will work as does their preferred unmodified. Because of the demand, not necessity, for a modified, Schluter specs and makes one they know will work with their membranes. Certainly, there are others, but there is not a specific spec they can call out to identify those others to differentiate one that will or won't work properly. Knowing that an unmodified works when the instructions are followed, it took them years to offer a modified. In general, many of them that do not rely on latex as their modifier will work. There may be exceptions...and, that's the problem. Without a spec listed on all bags, you can't reliably tell the customer use X unless you control it, thus their choosing to make one. IOW, they can't control the manufacture or test numerous, potentially changing products out there and say you can use X, unlike when attaching say Ditra to plywood where there is an ANSI spec they know will work, regardless of the modifier involved since the wood will allow it to dry...curing occurs regardless.

A Kerdi seam will not be water tight if either the thinset layer is too thick or the membrane is not fully embedded. It's easier to do with an unmodified...less sticky and spreads better assuming you get a quality one and mix it properly. That allows the thinset to flow into the fleece and excess to be squeegeed out to make the required joint waterproof.
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Old 02-12-2019, 08:31 PM   #73
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Does anyone know what happened to the 14 ft tall cylinder that Schluter filled with water? Wondering if it was still around.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:02 PM   #74
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Quote:
Does anyone know what happened to the 14 ft tall cylinder that Schluter filled with water? Wondering if it was still around.
I'm pretty sure it was still there back in 2015...haven't been back since.

Plattsburg, NY has a small, college town vibe. It's impressive to see the warehouse. They don't show the KerdiBoard production section - proprietary. I haven't been to their west coast facility, so can't compare. FWIW, if you can spare the time, the classes at the main office are longer and you can get a tour of the facility.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:04 PM   #75
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Where was it actually located, Jim? I'm only familiar with it from the various seminars.
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