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Unread 12-03-2013, 05:31 AM   #1
liltommy
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Going to do a kitchen floor,1st of many ?'s.

Hi all. 1st post here.
We all gotta start somewhere.
I've done a few small tile job years ago. Well I'm older now prefer to do things correctly now instead of cheaply.
I'd hate to see what that 1st bathroom I did 15 years ago looks like now.
In my defense, I thought I was doing it right.
Enough with the BS, on to my question.

The wife wants me to tile the kitchen floor. She wants a 6"X20 or 24" (she hasn't picked out the exact one yet) wood looking tile.
I've been reading the site the last few days and learned about the Ditra material. Sounds good to me. I thought I was going to have to put down the cement board, but this Ditra sounds like a labor saver.

My 1st of many questions.
The area is about 17x18 with an island and DW and stove in cabinest.
I have 12" TJI's on 24" centers with 23/32 advantech T&G OSB flooring.
The TJI's have a span of 12' from from foundation wall to a lowered steel beam.
There is 1/4 luan? with a vinyl on top of the subfloor.
My question... if I leave the 1/4" luan can I use the standard Ditra or do I still need to go to the Ditra xl.
I was going to rip up the vinyl anyways, it has some problems with the seams coming up but was going to leave the luan.
I looked up the deflection table for the OSb but it gave deflections at certain weights and I wasn't sure what weights to use. I haven't looked up anything on the TJI's yet.
For height consideration (damn dishwasher) if I have to go with the ditra xl, the 1/4" luan will need to come up and I'll be going straight over the OSB.

Any and all advice is welcome.
Thanks all.
Tommy
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Unread 12-03-2013, 07:29 AM   #2
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Hi Tommy, welcome! You will need to take up the luan. You can go over the OSB with Ditra XL using a modified thinset then setting your tile with an unmodified thinset.
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Unread 12-03-2013, 08:18 AM   #3
liltommy
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That sucks.

Thank you sir. You've confirmed what I thought.
At 15,000 posts, I think you know what your talking about.
I thought ripping the vinyl up might screw up the luan anyways. (Am I using the correct name for this hardboard material).

So, at 1st I was going to get it from my local lowes @ 379 a roll. (They always have the best prices.....right?)
So 2 rolls + tax over $800, but I see it on Amazon from South Shore Flooring for 305 and free shipping. Plus no sales tax. YES!
This sounds good. They had pretty good reviews on Amazon.
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Unread 12-03-2013, 08:31 PM   #4
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Hi Tommy, glad you found some XL at a good price. Some of us will prefill the holes and let it dry then start setting the next day.
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Unread 12-03-2013, 08:45 PM   #5
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Welcome, Tommy.

Some of us would rather see you remove the Lauan and install a second layer of structural plywood subflooring and use the regular Ditra rather than the Ditra XL. Schluter requires a minimum of nominal 3/8ths" plywood, I would use nominal 1/2" plywood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy
At 15,000 posts, I think you know what your talking about.
We'd still think he was the new guy.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 12-04-2013, 06:44 AM   #6
liltommy
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To CX.

I couldn't find a "quote" button to reply to CX's post. So, cut and paste-

"Some of us would rather see you remove the Lauan and install a second layer of structural plywood subflooring and use the regular Ditra rather than the Ditra XL. Schluter requires a minimum of nominal 3/8ths" plywood, I would use nominal 1/2" plywood"

I've already got a nominal 3/4" subflooring. I've read (skimmed) through the installation instructions for Ditra. I didn't see much mention of thickness just joist spacing. But thats why I'm here to get "real world" advice. It does look like the subflooring is a "better" product so I think I have that going for me.

Thanks for the suggestion though and I'll mull it over with my options but that would really eat into my install time, add a little cost, and give me issues again with the dishwasher height. Cost I'm not really concerned with but the other 2 issues are my biggest concern. (I can only keep the wife out of the kitchen for so many days).
BUT I don't want to do a job that just marginally passes.

I'm still trying to figure out the deflection table for my subflooring.
Can anybody tell me what lb/sq.ft that I should be using? It seems the deflection is based off of that. The more weight, the more deflection.

Next question: Thinking about the grout. Wife says she wants as small spacing as possible to make it look more like a real hardwood floor and it would have to be colored to match the tile close as possible. She doesn't want a contrasting look.
-So any advice as to the smallest gap I should use keeping in mind I am an amateur.
-what type of grout would I want to use in that situation (money is the least of my concerns). More concerned with longevity and ease of install.
-would i need to mix in my own color or can I find a pretty good premixed selection.

Thank you all.
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Unread 12-04-2013, 07:36 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy
I couldn't find a "quote" button to reply to CX's post. So, cut and paste-
Tommy, if you'll visit our FAQ in the dark blue bar near the top of the page you'll find a brief tutorial on how best to post and properly attribute quotes here on the site. Very simple once you see it.

And if you'll go to the Schluter website you can download their Ditra Installation Handbook, which will tell you with great specificity what subflooring combinations they recommend for specific applications. And a lot more information about the use of the product that you should read.

There is no "deflection table" for subflooring to my knowledge. The subflooring requirements are based upon actual testing, usually C627 (Robinson machine), which uses point loading of about 300 pounds. Not something you can readily duplicate at home, you've just got to accept the substrate manufacturers' recommendations. But keep in mind that those will usually be minimum recommendations and the subflooring/substrate package recommended had to pass the testing only once to qualify. More subflooring never hurts.

The absolute minimum grout joint width recommended by the ceramic tile industry is 1/16th of an inch, but the general minimum recommendation is based upon the regularity of sizing of your particular tiles. You need a joint that is at least three times the difference in size between the largest and smallest tiles in your layout.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 12-04-2013, 09:35 AM   #8
liltommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cx
tommy, if you'll visit our faq in the dark blue bar near the top of the page you'll find a brief tutorial on how best to post and properly attribute quotes here on the site. Very simple once you see it.
Got it!

This is an example of the table I was looking at. I'm probly over thinking but once I get into something I like to try to understand the principle behind it.

Name:  Untitled picture.jpg
Views: 367
Size:  26.3 KB

I got the Ditra book a few days ago, but skimmed over the section on doubled flooring with std. 1/8" Ditra. Got to do the math and see which way to go.
I don't see anything in the Ditra book about which way tested better or which is preferred but off hand I'd think doubled floor and 1/8" ditra is better.

Thanks
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Unread 12-07-2013, 10:26 AM   #9
liltommy
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Can't double up on floor.

Because of my dishwasher, I'm going to have to go ahead with ditra xl straight over my 23/32 sub-flooring on 24" centers.
I've looked at it everway I can think of, including raising all the cabinets. I'm not going that route. Solid surface counters. If I was to break one of the joints while trying to shim the cabinets up, the wife would kill me.

I have compete access to the underside of the floor though and am wondering about my options to strengthen that way. (unfinished basment)
I see my options as
-adding more joists. Least desirable option. Probly biggest cost and will need to redo electrical wiring. I don't know what a 11 7/8 tji costs but assume not cheap.
-add bridging every 24" or less. I read in another post here that doing this would effectively give a deflection between joist the same as 16" OC.
(right now my favorite choice).
-add 1/2 or greater underlay , under floor between joists and support with
something attached to joists ( this is coming in 2nd place but I haven't researched this option thoroughly.)

Any other options I don't know about, or any other way to go.
I've thought about buying a shorter DW, but don't want to be forced into a certain brand or model cause of height restrictions.

I've been trying to find any cases where ditra xl has failed for installing over 24 oc and haven't found any. So I've got that going for me, but I still like to over build and hate using the minimum standard.

Thanks all .
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Unread 12-07-2013, 10:55 AM   #10
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Very unlikely you'll find an effective way to drop the first layer of subfloor between your engineered I-joists, Tommy. Just not designed for that.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 12-10-2013, 08:19 AM   #11
liltommy
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Ditra-set....wth is it.

A tile company I might be getting my tile from said they can get or have Ditra-set.
I'm confused as to what it is exactly. I know its used to put tile down to the Ditra, so un-modified right. But I thought a read on some threads where I can use to apply the Ditra to OSB subfloor. So what is it exactly.
Do I need to add something to the mix when applying it to the subfloor?

Thanks.
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Unread 12-10-2013, 08:34 AM   #12
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When in doubt, read the manufacturer's instructions, Tommy.

Ditra Set cannot be used to set anything over EGP or OSB unless mixed with the manufacturer's recommended additive. It's an un-modified thinset mortar (Dry-Set).

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 12-14-2013, 07:42 PM   #13
liltommy
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How do you keep it straight?

Started a new thread after not finding anything with search.
My wife is looking at a tile thats not rectified.
How do you make up for differences it tile widths? I'm looking for real world practices.
If you grab a tile thats a 1/16"(+ -) bigger or smaller than the previous do you not install a spacer and just center it to the previous and next one so it keepss the run straight?
I know when I've installed shingles (I know, NOT the same at all) we'd pop a chalk line every third row or so (sometime every row) to make sure we didn't start getting too far off.
Do you do the same with tile? Pop a line or check it with a straight edge after so many rows/columns?
You-tube videos only show so much.
Thanks all.
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Unread 12-14-2013, 08:04 PM   #14
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Hi, Tommy.

Easiest method is to snap "X" and "Y" grid lines and center each tile within the square. If you use spacers with tiles that vary in size, you're in danger of the grout lines "stair stepping".

And the minimum grout size should really be at least 3x the difference between the smallest and biggest tiles. So if the difference in facial tile dimensions 1/16", then 3/16" is your minimum grout width.

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Unread 12-14-2013, 08:17 PM   #15
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Hi Tommy. Among the best ways is the grid method. Lay three tiles out in a straight line with your desired grout joints between them. Measure from the edge of your first tile to the edge of your third tile. This will give you the distance for two tiles and two joints. That is your grid size. Use the 3-4-5 method to get snap two chalk lines square to each other. Figure out where you want full tile and start marking out grids.

While laying, the grid lines will guide you. Start with a tile on a line. The next tile in that row will split the difference between the first tile on a line and the next grid starting with a tile on the line. Of course your grid is 2x2 tiles, so you need to pick a corner to start on your lines and stick with it. If one tile is a hair bigger or smaller, just fudge the difference. It will look great.
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