Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 11-19-2012, 11:34 PM   #1
R.J.Macreedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 25
New Bathroom Underway - Need Various Advice

So this is my first shower install and it's slow going. I do have a bunch of questions and this site has a wealth of knowledge, but I guess it would be best to just post here.

A little bit of history

It's a basement bathroom and the floor was really old concrete, so old you could literally dig it out with a screwdriver. I ripped everything out and poured a new slab. While the floor was dug out, I had the plumber redo some sewer piping and the new shower drain. He insisted on making a lead pan with a clamping flange drain and coated it in some black waterproofing stuff (I have no idea what he used). He then sloppily stacked some 2x3 wood for the shower door frame. The entire thing looked so bad so I ripped out the wood and made a concrete form for the step, bottom shower door frame ( I don't what you actually call this). After I framed the entire shower, I straightened the entire pan as best I could with a small block of wood and a rubber mallet.

Name:  Queens-20121119-00054.jpg
Views: 2188
Size:  46.0 KB

Here is a picture of the pan after I installed Hardibacker 500 board and used thinset in the gaps. One of the issues is that the lead liner only overlaps the step about an inch and a half. I used a piece of Hardibacker to anchor the liner inside the pan against the step and hammered the rest of the liner flat on the top. I then used thinset on the top to seal it. In the photo, you can almost see where the liner ends. Would this cause me issues? I plan to paint the entire shower with Hydro ban.

Name:  Queens-20121119-00055.jpg
Views: 1383
Size:  49.6 KB

Here is the drain flange. The weep holes were entirely blocked with construction garbage and unclogged them with a small punch. I looked down into the drain and it seems like they had the brains to at least ensure the liner was sandwiched in between. They siliconed the bolt holes. Should I caulk around the flange and bolts just to be sure? Also, do I need to lay in some gravel around the weep holes and then just thinset over it when doing the tiles? I don;t really understand what the weep holes are for since the drain screws into the flange. I assume it's for small amounts of water that penetrate the tile gaps and mud bed.

Should I Hydro ban everything now or just use it in the pan, set up the mud bed and slope, and then apply to everything? How long do I have to wait for the bed to dry before applying Hydroban?

Name:  Queens-20121119-00051.jpg
Views: 2574
Size:  31.1 KB

Here is a shot of the entire shower more or less. I took extra care when cutting the backer board so the gaps were really small. I didn't bother using fiber tape and just applied Laticrete 254 all over the joints and corners. I mixed a little too much and used it on the fastener heads. Kind of late now, but is using the tape with thinset an issue that will come back to bite me later? I guess I could apply the tape and thinset the joints again if it's critical.

Name:  Queens-20121119-00053.jpg
Views: 4923
Size:  24.6 KB

I installed this "Redi-Niche" thing from Home Depot and caulked it around the perimeter including the fastening holes. I'm going to cut and trim the excess off when it dries. The surface on this thing is really smooth. Should I scuff this thing with a wire wheel or something prior to tiling?

I guess the last thing is choosing which thinset to use. The 254 seems like good stuff, but just bought it quickly to do the joints. I plan on tiling the ceiling in the shower and the porcelain tiling is fairly large (12x24 panels) with the shower floor being 2x2 on mesh. Would something like 255 be strong enough to hold larger tiling and adhere to the Hydroban on the backer board?

Sorry for the many questions, I should have asked some of these earlier, but better now before the tiling is in.
__________________
Anthony
R.J.Macreedy is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 11-20-2012, 05:37 AM   #2
bbcamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 30,274
It's never a good idea to have two waterproofing layers on both sides of an organic layer. The sloped mud bed "may" trap organic material (soap, skin cells, etc) that gets by the membrane. I'm afraid that's what will happen with your plan. If you want a liquid membrane shower, remove the lead pan, build your sloped mud bed and apply the membrane. Pay particular attention to the way you tie the liquid membrane to the clamping ring. Use reinforcing fabric and keep the weep holes open. If you do this the way the liquid membrane manufacturer recommends, you will then install another mud bed above the membrane for setting the tile.

The liquid membrane is applied to the surface of the backerboard to at least the height of the shower head. You tape and mud the backerboard joints. This makes the individual panels monolithic, and yes, it is critical. I would strongly recommend using reinforcing fabric in the corners when installing the membrane. I also recommend buying and using a wet film thickness gage to verify that your membrane is being applied to the correct thickness. Too thick is about as bad as too thin. The membrane instructions will tell you how long to wait before applying the product to fresh mud, as well as drying times between coats. Become very familiar with these instructions!

The Redi-niche may require an epoxy to set the ties on it. The installation instructions will say.
bbcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-20-2012, 08:30 AM   #3
R.J.Macreedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 25
Thanks for the reply.

Since the pan is already installed and counts towards a waterproof liner, can I just hydroban the walls and joints? I think nyc code requires use of the ridiculous lead pan and thought that applying it on the bed would be extra insurance, but I can't be sure.

The pan sits more or less level already. Can I just use thinset in the pan and tile or is a mud bed a much better solution.

Its not really a big deal to rip the pan out since its easy to cut and remove to make a new base.

Sorry, just a total novice.
__________________
Anthony
R.J.Macreedy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-20-2012, 10:42 AM   #4
bbcamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 30,274
The problem with lead is that it is flat with the floor, so your mud bed remains saturated long enough for mold to start growing. It also will corrode. Considering the trouble you had with the curb, I'd be inclined to poke a bunch of holes in it, then Hydroban the entire thing as if you had no lead under the sloped bed.
bbcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-20-2012, 12:48 PM   #5
R.J.Macreedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 25
I gotcha. Really good points.

So if I remove the lead liner, I'll be left with the concrete curb, cement backer board, and the bare concrete floor. Do I just go ahead and mud the area to a proper slope and then Hydroban everything? If so, the only issue is that the backerboard will have about a quarter inch gap in between the bottom of the board and the floor. Would this area be okay to fill in with thinset, just mud it as is, or should I just redo the boards again? The boards were a PITA to screw in even with the special fasteners.

If I can leave the boards, I'm going to sand down the existing thinset, and use the mesh fabric as instructed. My local store has the fabric in stock so I'll pick up a roll of that as well.

Thanks
__________________
Anthony
R.J.Macreedy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-20-2012, 12:55 PM   #6
bbcamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 30,274
If you go to Laticrete's website, there are instructions for building showers using their products. That's the best source for information. However, the long story made short, you want the backerboard to be embedded in your deck mud so your liquid waterproofer can span across the joint in one continuous membrane. If you remove the lead pan, you will be able to bond your deck mud to the concrete slab and make slope properly from the wall to the drain. If you use the clamping ring drain fitting, you will want to apply the membrane to the sloped mud bed and to the clamping ring using the reinforcing fabric. You also use this fabric at the wall to sloped mud bed joint. Later, you will screw in the adjustible portion so it is 1 1/4" or so higher than the membrane, then place a mud setting bed that follows the same slope to the walls. This mud doesn't need to be waterproofed, but you do need to protect the weepholes at the drain fitting so water can drain adequately.

All that said, I think you will be removing and reinstalling your backerboard.
bbcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-20-2012, 01:09 PM   #7
R.J.Macreedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 25
I will read all of the documents.

I think I will need to remove the lower backboards as it is pretty damn tight against the studs and goes up about 6 inches.

What a nightmare. Could be worse I guess.
__________________
Anthony
R.J.Macreedy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-20-2012, 01:39 PM   #8
bbcamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 30,274
Yeah, you could have found us by looking for sealing advice...
bbcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-22-2012, 02:16 PM   #9
R.J.Macreedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 25
So I tore out the ridiculous lead liner. I tried like hell to remove it without touching the CBU, but no way. You were right and in the end I removed all of the lower panels. They were so swiss cheesed and started to crack, I decided to redo the lower half with new CBU.

Here is a picture with the lead pan removed, the studs, and one new panel installed. Since the studs were flimsy to begin with (Home Depot Special), and had many holes, I cut 3/4 plywood to insert in the back of each stud so the new screws would have a solid place to fasten again.

Name:  IMG-20121121-00004.jpg
Views: 1239
Size:  29.9 KB

As I was picking up the boards at the local supply, I noticed they had a Hydroban drain and picked one up. I dug out the old flange all the way to the trap.

Name:  IMG-20121121-00006.jpg
Views: 1389
Size:  42.7 KB

I used a Husky quad clamp to transition to the PVC, filled with gravel, and poured concrete so it holds level. I left about a 3 inch hole when I'm ready to mud and glue the flange on. (The concrete isn't mixed wet, I just doused it with water a bit the next day)

Name:  IMG-20121122-00007.jpg
Views: 1169
Size:  39.7 KB

I test fit the flange and have about 1 1/4 - 1 3/8 gap as the instructions stated. All nice and level for once, haha.

Name:  IMG-20121121-00005.jpg
Views: 1126
Size:  35.6 KB

I'm going to finish the rest of the CBU tomorrow and spent hours removing the old thinset with a putyknife from the upper backboards and joints so I can redo everything with mesh and thinset again as per instructions.

Name:  IMG-20121122-00009.jpg
Views: 1387
Size:  24.5 KB

The photo above shows the CBU where it meets the curb and floor. The floor isn't perfectly level, but I think the mud will take care of that. Do I just leave these gaps open and let the mud seal them or do I need to thinset them prior to mudding? The only information I found on Hardis instructions is to caulk, but that's for installing above the floor. I was worried about the lower track getting corroded.


I do have another question on the mud. In the instructions, it states to make a slurry mix with 249 to pour on the existing concrete and then use the 3701 over that to create the sloped bed. The shower base, is 30 inches (left to right) from the wall to the center of the drain so I would need a 5/8s slope on each side. The measurement from the rear wall to the drain centerline is 12 inches. Does this need to be sloped 1/4 inch toward the drain as well?

I was thinking of making small wooden stakes around the perimeter of the pan so when I mud it, I could just follow the height of them as I slope toward the drain, remove them when finished, and pack them with mud. Will this work or is there a better tutorial on how best to accomplish this?


I bought the fabric for the Hyrdoban, but I'll save those questions for later. I'm on information overload right now
__________________
Anthony
R.J.Macreedy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-22-2012, 03:33 PM   #10
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 89,829
Anthony, you wanna measure your slope from the drain to the farthest corner of the shower and calculate your 1/4" per foot from that. Round off upward.

You want the entire perimeter to be level. Yes, that means your slope will be steeper where the drain is closer to a wall. A line drawn on the wall boards is usually sufficient reference to make level mud screeds around the perimeter as guides from which to make your sloped mud floor.

You could save dinero by using deck mud for your floor in lieu of those specialty products. In any case you will need a slurry of Portland cement or thinset mortar to bond to the concrete slab. Or one of the specialty products if that's the manufacturer's recommendation.

You'll want to fill and tape the CBU joints except for the floor/wall joint that will be covered by the mud floor.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-25-2012, 07:01 PM   #11
R.J.Macreedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 25
Busy weekend. Got alot done and think everything came out okay. Sorry if I post too many photos, I guess I just welcome the advice.

Name:  IMG-20121123-00011.jpg
Views: 1118
Size:  19.5 KB

Finally finished cutting the new CBU and fastening. I tried to leave some small gaps between the boards so I could squeeze the thinset in between. Installed mesh fabric over all off the joints and ready for thinset.

Name:  IMG-20121123-00012.jpg
Views: 1439
Size:  23.4 KB

Thinset completed. I used a putty knife and took extra care to smoosh into all of the joints. Time consuming, but since I had to rip everything apart already, gonna do it right.

Name:  IMG-20121124-00014.jpg
Views: 1171
Size:  22.5 KB

Glued the drain flange into the waste line and spread 254 all over the base.

Name:  IMG-20121124-00016.jpg
Views: 1267
Size:  32.2 KB

The Hydroban drain system called for 2x2 reinforcement. I had some of this wire rebar in my garage so I just stuffed it on top of the thinset layer. I had no idea whereto get 2x2 reinforcement it was calling for. And here comes the mud.

Name:  IMG-20121124-00017.jpg
Views: 1434
Size:  27.0 KB

Mud Complete. I have 5/8s pitch to the drain,but it doesn't seem like it. Optical illusion, but the level doesn't lie! This was the first time working with "mud" and when I was mixing it, I had to stop myself from adding too much water as it looked too dry. Overall, it came out pretty good.

Name:  IMG-20121125-00019.jpg
Views: 1160
Size:  41.6 KB

The concrete slab is about 3 months old and developed cracks in the first month. It seems to have in the last two months so I think I'm okay. The floor had alot of divots and was uneven so I decided to use up the rest of the mortar and thinset to fill in holes and level it off.


Now it's time to let everything dry and start on the Hydroban. According to the instructions, it said to wait at least 72 hours before applying the first coat. I also bought the Laticrete anti fracture - waterproofing fabric. Do I just apply the 6 inch roll over all of the joints on the CBU and at the base where the CBU meets the shower bed? I also have the larger roll of fabric. Do I need to bother with that at all? I'm still waiting on the wet thickness gauge but I guess I could use a small machinists rule to measure the thickness.

Also, on the bathroom floor, should I apply the larger fabric with hydroban before tiling just in case the slab seperates more? I have two gallons of it but would do lay down a cheaper anti-fracture fabric if it works just as well.

Thanks
__________________
Anthony
R.J.Macreedy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-25-2012, 09:49 PM   #12
muskymike
Retired Moderator -- Wisconsin Tile Man & Musky Guide
 
muskymike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Springbrook WI
Posts: 16,083
Send a message via Yahoo to muskymike
Hi Anthony, you don't need the fabric with Hydroban. You can use the Hydro ban on the bath floor or Ditra or Noble CIS
__________________
Musky Mike
Corrado Custom Tile
Kerdi Shower Specialist
Dreams are like tasting a little bit of the future today. Keep dreaming and it will come true.

New here? Check this out.

muskymike is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-26-2012, 01:58 PM   #13
R.J.Macreedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 25
The instructions say it's a anti-fracture membrane itself, but some installations will require the use of fabric. I was looking at Ditra but since I already have the fabric and two gallons of Hydroban, I might as well use it. What situations would require the use of Hydroban and the fabric?

I have 350 sq. ft. floor that was recently poured (1 month old) so I might look at the Ditra again when I'm ready to do it.
__________________
Anthony
R.J.Macreedy is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-26-2012, 02:51 PM   #14
bbcamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 30,274
If you have the instruction sheet, you have the answer to that question.
bbcamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-26-2012, 05:25 PM   #15
R.J.Macreedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 25
Sorry, I didn't understand what they meant by "cold joint". Re-reading what you wrote before and the sheet, I think I'm ready to go. I just didn't want to have another epic do-over. Laticrete was nice enough to send me a wet thickness gauge for free so I'm all set.
__________________
Anthony
R.J.Macreedy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Master bathroom renovation with steam shower underway SonicAgamemnon Tile Forum/Advice Board 3 03-02-2011 07:34 PM
New Half Bath Project Underway Porkface Tile Forum/Advice Board 14 02-21-2010 08:34 AM
Basement Shower Underway TGF Tile Forum/Advice Board 21 07-14-2008 03:36 PM
Bathroom remodel underway - more questions! dfulmer Tile Forum/Advice Board 1 02-17-2006 11:30 PM
Help,my first shower pan is underway! bassthecat Tile Forum/Advice Board 15 10-19-2003 08:09 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:27 AM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC