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Unread 03-02-2016, 05:10 PM   #286
jvcstone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodie
There's more than enough credible evidence to require sensible men to hedge their bets.
Sorry to say, but I have yet to see any of this "credible" evidence. what I have seen is a lot of guess work based on computer models that have shown no accuracy at all. I have also seen some of those"credible" scientists manipulating and "adjusting" data to fit their story. Like I said, if the theory doesn't fit the observable facts, you need a new theory. Any claim that the science is settled is just BS--science is never settled, which is why more and more research keeps adding knowledge to all science fields--knowledge that often over turns previous established beliefs.

I am 100% sure that the climate will always keep changing just as it did long before man ever existed, and will long after man is just another part of the fossil record. I am also 100% sure that the CO2 level in the atmosphere could double from today's level and there would be no dire results--in fact it would result in a much greener and more comfortable world for all of us. Cold is the danger, and some point to evidence that we are moving back into a colder phase--not looking forward to that


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodie
According to 2 research experts from Stanford University, you are incorrect in saying the technology doesn't exist today to begin the conversion to clean energy
Well of course we have BEGUN the conversion. Shoot, I even use solar here on the ranch to pump water, and hope to run the entire place with wind and solar if I should live long enough. Would love to be off grid but for the $$. And that is one of the biggest hurdles to going totally renewable. First off, wind and solar have yet to work cost wise without massive gov subsidies. The money to completely change the system out is just not there. Would you be happy for your electric bill to double or triple just to hedge your bet??? How about rolling brown outs and black outs becoming the norm instead of the extreme??? No matter how good the technology, solar doesn't work too well at night or on cloudy days, and the wind does not blow (at the surface anyway) 24/7. I'm also aware of the research into wave generation, and tethered kite like generators, and some other pretty far out ideas, but that is all they are just yet. Germany has already backed off of it's ambitions, and GB is finding out just how costly it is. Do you have any idea as to how much land (in sq. miles) it would take to put up enough of those windmills and solar arrays to totally power this country, and again storage is the biggest issue. Tesla has developed what it calls a "Power wall" which is essentially a big lithium battery that you hang on an exterior wall. Charge it from the grid at low demand times, or your roof top display. Problem with lithium batteries though is that they have a tendency to catch fire, and I doubt that there is enough lithium available to build the size batteries it would take to power even a modest sized city, let alone the entire grid.

If Obama was to order all fossil fuel generation to stop by next week, or next year, or even 5 years, it would be the end of life as we know it. Don't believe I want my children and (many) grandkids to experience the late 1800's, early 20th century as a normal life style--they can do so when they visit the old man at the ranch

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Unread 03-02-2016, 06:26 PM   #287
Bodie Powers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John
First off, wind and solar have yet to work cost wise without massive gov subsidies. The money to completely change the system out is just not there. Would you be happy for your electric bill to double or triple just to hedge your bet???
Yeah, let's discuss cost impact: Last May, Scientific American published details of an International Money fund (IMF) study that calculates annual government fossil fuel subsidies at $5.3 Trillion per year and rising. Subsidies = Taxpayer Dollars. http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...sen-pollution/

Additional cost/impact info:
"In 2009, the U.S. Congress directed the National Academy of Sciences to complete a study to calculate the impact of fossil fuel burning on our health care system. The result: $120 billion per year of health care costs that are directly related to burning fossil fuels in America. The costs were about even between coal and oil. (It's certain that these costs are MUCH higher today, given the skyrocketing increase in healthcare costs since 2009)

In 2011, Scientific American reported the healthcare burden of fossil fuels equated to 30,100 premature deaths each year – with 5,130,000 workdays lost." http://www.capital-content.com/2014/...lion-per-year/

Harvard Medical School,MIT, and numerous other credible research institutes have done similar studies that show enormous hidden costs directly associated with the burning of coal and oil.

Conveniently, the groups that are opposing clean technology (Including the Koch Brothers) fail to report these costs when making their case against clean energy.
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Unread 03-02-2016, 08:29 PM   #288
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Moderators, there are a number of open threads on climate change. Why do you insist on moving all discussions to one with an insidious title "Global Warming Scam Exposed"? Can we be impartial grownups here and change the title to Climate Change Debate or something similar?
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Unread 03-02-2016, 08:32 PM   #289
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If you can get the thread owner to agree to the title change, Bodie, I'll be happy to make it happen.

Or perhaps you can petition one of the site owners to change the title without the owner's consent. We moderators as a rule don't change titles otherwise.
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Unread 03-02-2016, 11:11 PM   #290
Bodie Powers
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CX, I doubt the OP would have any interest in changing the title so that option is out. And I don't want to ask for a waiver of site rules.

Personally, I'm no longer interested in debating scientific evidence confirming or denying the existence of anthropogenic climate change. I'd like instead to begin a discussion of the economic costs of both fossil fuel and "clean" energy. If I begin a thread on this topic, will it be rolled into the "climate change scam" thread? If so, I'm not going to bother.
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Unread 03-03-2016, 08:36 PM   #291
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As long as I can change the title to "Climate change tax scam".

Bodie, I think your request is reasonable. Personally, I'd rather just change the title of the "scam" thread. Let me see if I can get this authorized.

Go ahead and start your new thread. We'll either combine it or leave it be.
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Unread 03-03-2016, 11:15 PM   #292
Bodie Powers
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I'd prefer disassociating from any of the global warming threads. Those threads are focused on the questions of whether the climate is changing, and if so whether the changes are man caused or part of a natural climate cycle.

The topic I want to explore is the true economic cost of both fossil fuel and "clean" energy. There are significant economic and environmental costs associated with each, and there is good reason to understand those costs irrespective of the climate. I'll start a new thread on the topic tomorrow.
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