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Unread 06-11-2016, 07:26 PM   #16
T_Hulse
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Quote:
Schluter Europe requires one of the modifieds that will cure in the presence of excess moisture.
No. You may have found a recommendation somewhere, but the requirement is only "tiles can be set using the thin-bed method and using a bonding tile adhesive that matches the requirements of the covering." Schluter Europe does not have the same requirements for the same product as we do, which makes sense at least for Europe, because the other impervious membrane manufacturers don't have that non-modified requirement either. Tile setters most commonly use modified on top of Schluter in Europe, as it is the most common recommendation from both tile manufacturers and the thinset manufacturers for porcelain tile world wide.
Quote:
This is why there are differences in installation requirements, not because what they specify here doesn't work, and work well IF you follow the instructions.
You're completely missing the point, Jim. No one is claiming that it is not possible to get unmodified to work if done correctly. The rub is whether or not it is needed, required, and better than the way everyone else in the world sets porcelain tile over impervious membranes, including Schluter Europe; and whether it is necessary to violate the instructions of the tile manufacturer. Honestly, your "training" at Schluter's propaganda class does not equip you to answer that question. You might want to at least do 1 job as a pro working with these mortars before you tell us how it's done.
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Unread 06-11-2016, 08:13 PM   #17
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Thanks Tom. Any idea then as to why that area failed?
In many years doing forensic inspections on tile failures, one thing I learned is that no one wants to hear they didn't do a good job. But I have the same concerns as Roberto: 1 - Cheap liquid membrane on an outdoor deck in NY, 2 - Cheap basic mortars for an outdoor deck in that same harsh freeze/thaw climate, 3 - non-sanded grout for quarry tile, 4 - job failure. Let's be honest and recognize this was a bottom-of-the-barrel installation all around. It could have been a hundred different causes, or a combination of several; including just trusting the manufacturers that using all minimum-grade products is a good way to go in such a harsh environment for tile (I learned the hard way, a long time ago).
It's hard to imagine with those 4 givens that the installers were meticulous in getting 95% coverage to prevent water pockets that destroy a thinset bond in freezing weather, and if they were, then the time that most crews start to slack off in quality is at the very end when they're rushing to finish, which is where yours failed.
Another possibility is that it got walked on prematurely, as it was almost dry. Kerabond dries faster than UF2, plus it had a head start from being used first, so premature foot traffic could have affected just the UF2 the most. I really doubt those setters gave it the full 24 hours required. We all do it occasionally, but you have to be a solid pro who really knows his mortar to know when you can get away with it (Not for UF2 outdoors in NY).
Another is if this was installed in the spring, fall, or winter with unexpected overnight low temps, then the faster drying Kerabond that had a head start from going first would have had an advantage over the slower UF2.
These are just a few of many, many possibilities.
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Unread 06-11-2016, 08:20 PM   #18
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I could also think of another one , besides the ones mentioned by Tom , exposure to sun during the installation of the Ditra or over it .
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Unread 06-12-2016, 02:17 AM   #19
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Tom the failure was a modified thinset over Ditra. Aquadefense is what he was planning to use for the repair.

I agree that Mapei would recommend/prefer Keralastic/Kerabond or GraniRapid for exterior work in a freeze thaw area. But their data sheet for UF 2 says that it is suitable for exterior installations.

http://www.mapei.com/public/US/produ...2_EN_LoRes.pdf

The installer should know when to use the best products but why do manufacturer's recommend products for exterior work if they are not suitable in your opinion?
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Unread 06-12-2016, 04:41 AM   #20
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Yeah I noticed that the Aquadefense was for the repair, not the original failure, just after I typed it; but I left it in there because it was part of the same decision-making process by the same crew on the same job. It's exactly the same type of poor decision as using UF2 outdoors in NY over wood framing.
Many, many, many of these type of outdoor decks over wood framing in cold climates fail. You really need a huge margin of error, and the cheapest bargain materials just don't guarantee success, despite what the manufacturers claim (these are same guys hawking premixed thinset). Of the maybe half-dozen pros I know having success with these kinds of decks in cold climates, their average membrane cost is around double what Seth paid either the 1st or 2nd time around. Their average mortar cost is also nearly double. The stickier, shorter-pot-life mortars also bring a higher labor cost, as does a more careful installation by real journeyman who know better than to use non-sanded grout on quarry tile.
I think the reasons they approve bargain products for critical areas are competition and greed. If one comes out with a premixed thinset for floors then all the others have to follow or miss out on sales. If one says you can use their cheap thinset for glass tile then the others have to do the same. At least they know it won't cost them anything, they'll just deny the claim based on installer error, and usually be right. The minimum products only work for critical uses under theoretical and perfect usage. Nobody's perfect.
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Unread 06-12-2016, 09:51 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higher Standard Tile
The installer should know when to use the best products but why do manufacturer's recommend products for exterior work if they are not suitable in your opinion?
I would see 3 red flags in their DS not to use it for exterior application

'' Protect from frost and rain for 7 days.''

'' Installations of tile over nonporous surfaces (waterproofing membranes,sheet membranes, existing tile, etc.) may require extended setting/curing times.

''Do not use for installations subject to prolonged water immersion.''



And there is this note

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDS
'' Use a MAPEI liquid latex additive mortar system for areas subject to severe freeze/thaw conditions ''
without any specifics . What are the liquid latex additive/s ?
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Unread 06-12-2016, 08:59 PM   #22
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Mapei's latex additive: http://www.mapei.com/US-EN/Tile-&-St.../Planicrete-AC

It appears to be the only one in their catalog for mortars. They have a bunch for concrete.

FWIW, Schluter did a test using a modified thinset over Ditra...they used a piece of glass so you could see what was going on. It took nearly 3-months for the modified thinset to dry out. The cement long-since had cured, but the modifier was still somewhat liquid, and potentially could be washed away, leaving a matrix of cement that was no longer properly hooked to things. I don't remember the size of the 'tile' they used, but it was not huge.
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Last edited by jadnashua; 06-12-2016 at 09:54 PM.
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Unread 06-13-2016, 07:56 AM   #23
MAPEI - Technical Service
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The basic question here - "Should I left UF2 dry longer over a membrane before grouting with Epoxy?" is fairly straightforward to answer. By 24 hours, UF2 will have developed most of its bond strength regardless of what is below it and can be grouted with epoxy. As was stated earlier, if the installation is very damp or cold, you'll want to give it some extra time. I'm not sure I saw what epoxy you're using, but Kerapoxy CQ is only rated for joints up to 3/8" so you'll have some significant slumping in the joints trying to get it to go 1/2".

Later on there are questions about our mortar additives. We make several, Granirapid has its own polymer additive that comes with the system. Kerabond and Kerabond T are typically mixed with Keralastic. Mortars like UF2 would benefit from Keraply. If you're shopping at Lowes, you can buy our Polymer Additive. Here is a page that points to more info for additives:

http://www.mapeihome.com/mortars-and-tile-adhesives
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Last edited by MAPEI - Technical Service; 06-13-2016 at 08:14 AM.
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