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Old 09-17-2018, 11:37 AM   #1
jdmckay
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Shower tile replacement

hello,

Redoing MBR shower in our 50+ year old house. 3 ft x 4 ft. Some grout was loose, went to chip it out and tile started popping off. Saw evidence of water damage so I ripped it apart. Replaced all the damaged 2 x 4's, firmed up one shaky wall, installed new shower fixture.

Think I'm ready to begin rebuilding, but I have a few questions.

Think I know what I'm doing on the walls, but just in case I plan to:

1) install 1/2 water protected sheetrock, seal screws and corners with Mapei Aqua Defense
2) Install 1/2 UBS Fibrerock over sheetrock, seal corners with same a above.
3) Using Mapei grout, was told to use matching Mapei color slicone on all corners (Do I need to do this?)

More urgent question has to do with the pan. It's concrete, had liner underneath and about 4 inches up wall. Removed old tile with chisel, and had to cut liner off at top of pan (had to to replace rotten 2 x 4's).

There's a lot of chips in the surface of pan concrete, and one corner came up completely down to the slab... about 7 inches square. I'm very uncertain how to smooth this out, what material to use, and in what order.

Only advice I had was seal pan as it is with the Mapei Aqua defense, and smooth pan over that with thin set. I'm using Mapei Ultraflex-1.

I have done a lot of tile, but no experience with showers.

Any solid help appreciated.
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:50 PM   #2
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Hi, Jim.

You’ve come to an extremely reliable source for rock-solid info. If you compare our advice to that at the box stores and such, you’re statistically going to be confused and cause yourself unnecessary grief.

So far, you’ve got a traditionally built shower pan with a roll-on waterproofing for the walls. There is nothing wrong with this set up, but it’s good to state this out loud that you’ve got options. You could also go with a traditionally built shower with waterproofing behind the cement board walls...or using a system of complete surface waterproofing where none of the substrate materials ever gets wet....or the hybrid that you seem to be gravitating towards.

Okay...straight into it:
Ditch the drywall for the shower. There are cases of building mud walls where you could use it. But in a cement board shower, just stick to using cement board only.

Speaking of cement board, depending on how you build and what parts you’re waterproofing, the cement board may be buried in the mud pan. And if that’s the case, you want a “true” cement board like Durock. What you’ve chosen is a fiber cement and shouldn’t be buried as I describe.

Yes, using a high quality sealant like that 100% silicone at the change of planes is industry standard. Yes, it seems a little pricey. But it allows proper movement.

Your pan....time to build a new one. There’s nothing wrong Roth saving on the old one. You’ve got to decide if you’re going to use a tradional liner below the pan or a drain that works in concert with surface waterproofing.

But....before you commit to anything....a picture or two would help us see what you’re seeing and prompt us to address additional items. So....pictures are most welcome.

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Old 09-17-2018, 05:50 PM   #3
Davy
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Hi Jim. First off, ditch the sheetrock idea in the shower. It's not going to do any protecting.

Let me explain this, The pan liner is the pan, the cement under the liner is called a preslope. It's job is to give the liner slope. I think you'll need to post a picture or two to help us see what you have.
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:52 PM   #4
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Wo-hooooooo! I finally best Davy to the punch. Now, there’s something that doesn’t happen every day. I’m stoked!
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:56 PM   #5
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Caught me napping.
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:07 PM   #6
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Thanks for replies, very helpful. Wife is gone for a couple days with our only camera. I have plenty of other work in rest of bathroom, I'll take some photos and post when she returns.

Quote:
Speaking of cement board, depending on how you build and what parts you’re waterproofing, the cement board may be buried in the mud pan. And if that’s the case, you want a “true” cement board like Durock. What you’ve chosen is a fiber cement and shouldn’t be buried as I describe.
Ahhh... we have a brand new "big box" tile store (Floor and Decor, Albuquerque) here where I bought everything. Guy who helped me select everything said my board was fine, to pack 4 to 1 mixture against it (if I replaced the pan. So, with UBS board I set the bottom on top edge on new pan (and seal joint it with my Mapei sealer)? Or should I return it and get Durock?

I'll take advice to "ditch" sheet rock.

Quote:
You could also go with a traditionally built shower with waterproofing behind the cement board walls...or using a system of complete surface waterproofing where none of the substrate materials ever gets wet....or the hybrid that you seem to be gravitating towards.
Didn't realize I was doing a "hybrid", especially with eliminating sheetrock. I like the idea of "complete surface waterproofing". Will rolling "Aqua Defense" over entire UBS (or Durock) surface achieve this? Or is there another way?
Quote:
Your pan....time to build a new one.
Ok, I didn't want to do this but will take your advice (I want to do this right and well). Watched a couple how-to/DIY Youtube videos , if anyone has any suggestions beyond those I'm all ears. I've never done this before.

Quote:
You’ve got to decide if you’re going to use a tradional liner below the pan or a drain that works in concert with surface waterproofing.
I honestly do not know what drain characteristics allow for surface waterproofing. Looks like my drain is cast iron, with 2 threaded holes for strainer mounted on top. Top lip of drain is tile-thickness hight about top of pan. i was advised to seal tile around drain with silicone after installing tile. I read in another thread the pros replace cast iron drains (uggg). I'd like to use what I've got, but will replace if you guys convince me its the right way.

Is effectiveness of surface waterproofing on a par with a "traditional liner"?

What options available for this liner, what do you guys like best (and why)? Surface waterproofing just looks easier to me at this point, but (???).

Thanks again. I'll get photos up Wed afternoon or Thursday morning.
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:51 PM   #7
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The shower you're suggesting is considered a hybrid because you're using cement board but you're also talking about using a roll on waterproof on portions of it instead of the entire thing.

When somebody suggested a drain that works with surface applied membranes, they were talking about a system. Not using your old drain with a new membrane because that won't work. They were talking about using Kerdi, for example, which comes with several choices of drains that work specifically with their surface applied membrane system.

And, yes, a properly constructed surface applied membrane shower will be just as waterproof as any other well constructed shower. The benefit of a surface applied membrane system is that the water never makes it past just below the surface of the tile. Less possible interaction with other parts of your construction.
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Old 10-05-2018, 11:39 PM   #8
jdmckay
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Hi guys,

Finished redoing most of rest of bathroom, getting back to shower tomorrow.

Decided to follow all your good advice. Chiseled out old shower pan as advised tonight. Completed installation of new shower fixture and pressure tested.

Plan to install UBS Fiibrerock tomorrow, hopefully do new pan. Intend to use no pan liner, rely on surface sealer. I was advised to seal edge of tile to drain with my Mapei Silicone.

Quote:
Speaking of cement board, depending on how you build and what parts you’re waterproofing, the cement board may be buried in the mud pan. And if that’s the case, you want a “true” cement board like Durock. What you’ve chosen is a fiber cement and shouldn’t be buried as I describe.
I bought a sheet of Durock, decided to line pan/preslope area with 10 in. wide strips and do everything above it with UBS. Then completely seal surface areas with Aqua Defense.

Got a few photos as requested, thanks for advice and appreciate any more suggestions.
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Old 10-06-2018, 08:29 AM   #9
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Quote:
I was advised to seal edge of tile to drain with my Mapei Silicone.
Quote:
I bought a sheet of Durock, decided to line pan/preslope area with 10 in. wide strips


I would advise you to stop and make sure you're proceeding correctly.
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Old 10-06-2018, 09:33 AM   #10
jdmckay
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Morning tatumjonj,

I am not going to do anything until I hear from you guys. If anything I said needs correction, I'm all ears.
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Old 10-06-2018, 09:36 AM   #11
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Jim, what would be your thoughts on centering the drain? Also, with it being cast iron, it's probably 40+ years old, and you would be better off replacing the drain and everything below it, including the trap.
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Old 10-06-2018, 10:43 AM   #12
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From what you wrote about having cut off the liner at the top of the pan, I see potential trouble there as well. Does this affect the curb, too? Usually, the liner must extend a few inches above the top of the pan and wrap around the curb nicely. I'd think it would be very problematic to attempt patchwork waterproofing here with the paint-on membrane. It doesn't sound good to me, and I can only imagine that there is no true longevity in such an approach.

You might be inching towards a complete redo. And that is actually a good thing if you value your time and your work.

Ditto on inspecting the drain and possibly replacing it. It's one of the most important parts of your shower, and possible failure here would nix all of your efforts. Even if it looks ok, I'd still consider replacement. Inspecting the trap for corrosion from above will be almost impossible anyway. You'd have to look inside the trap and judge the remaining wall thickness. While cast iron is very long-lived, sections where water constantly remains over decades (such as the trap) are vulnerable.
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Old 10-06-2018, 10:51 AM   #13
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Happy Birthday, Jim!

Wolfgang, he took our advice and has already demo’d the pan.
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Old 10-06-2018, 10:53 AM   #14
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Ooops. My bad. I didn't read the thread thoroughly enough.
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Old 10-06-2018, 02:07 PM   #15
jdmckay
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KMAN said:

Quote:
What would be your thoughts on centering the drain?
I had not intended to do that. I assume reason is to make it easier to get the pan slope even all the way around. I was going to do it like it was previous: a little steeper on the short radius. Don't think I would have a problem doing that, it looked fine before.

Plz speak up with good/experienced reasons to do otherwise.

Quote:
Also, with it being cast iron, it's probably 40+ years old, and you would be better off replacing the drain and everything below it, including the trap.
Ughhh... had not planned on doing this either. Plz explain why... concern about old pipe not holding up, or sealing well, or (???). I already rented a jack hammer to redo other plumbing in the bathroom so I do not savor doing this. But again, am determined to do this right and will do this as you say if you persuade me.

thanks KMAN.

makethatkerdistick said:

Quote:
From what you wrote about having cut off the liner at the top of the pan, I see potential trouble there as well. Does this affect the curb, too?
You can see in photos what it looks like with pan removed, liner came right up. I repaired curb (water damage). tatumjonj said upthread:

Quote:
And, yes, a properly constructed surface applied membrane shower will be just as waterproof as any other well constructed shower. The benefit of a surface applied membrane system is that the water never makes it past just below the surface of the tile. Less possible interaction with other parts of your construction.
I took this to mean I did not need a liner (???).

Quote:
Usually, the liner must extend a few inches above the top of the pan and wrap around the curb nicely. I'd think it would be very problematic to attempt patchwork waterproofing here with the paint-on membrane. It doesn't sound good to me, and I can only imagine that there is no true longevity in such an approach.
I wasn't going to do "patchwork" (if I understand you correctly), intended to seal all surfaces on pan and walls. Not sure how to reconcile what you're saying and tatumjonj said.

Quote:
Ditto on inspecting the drain and possibly replacing it. It's one of the most important parts of your shower, and possible failure here would nix all of your efforts. Even if it looks ok, I'd still consider replacement. Inspecting the trap for corrosion from above will be almost impossible anyway. You'd have to look inside the trap and judge the remaining wall thickness. While cast iron is very long-lived, sections where water constantly remains over decades (such as the trap) are vulnerable.
Duly noted. I think I'll get one of my close friends who is an experienced plumber come over and take a look... show him your comments and go from there. Not looking forward to replacing, but if he agrees I'll do it. How far down is that thing anyway? Imagine I'd have to go below it, cut with saws all and use rubber boot for connection (???). Can I use PVC?

Thanks again guys for thoughtful, detailed advice... really appreciate it. If it goes that way, guess I'll call jack hammer rental my 63rd B-Day present to myself.
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