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Old 04-16-2018, 09:39 PM   #1
guoxiaotian
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Frameless shower panel clips and wedi shower base

Hi all,
I am planning a MB renovation and I want to put a curbless + frameless glass shower in it.
After some research I plan to use Wedi Lingno pan as shower base (this question applies to similar products of different brands, like ARC TreDEK), but I can't decide where to put the brass clip of frameless shower glass panels. which is screwed on to tile floor (and on the wall, into tile and studs behind). The question is, should the clips be screwed inside the Wedi shower pan perimeter or outside? Here is why I think this would make a difference:

- Inside perimeter, pro: most water will hit the panel and drop inside the pan and into the drain, which is water-proof literally to the core. con: the base material is more flexible than subfloor, the brass clip screw will screwed through tile, thinset and into the wedi foam core. with the weigh of the glass all land on 1 or 2 clips, the tile might crack due to the flexibility of the base below it.

- Outside perimeter, pro: the weight of the panel will land on the tile above subfloor, which is more rigid. con: water will flow above/pass the gap between subfloor and Wedi base. Yes, it's sealed, but still, have a safety net would be nice.

I an homeowner and have not done any showers before. so these might not be concern either way or I might have bigger problem to worry with this setup, you advice would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. with all the effort to make things water proof, would the shower glass clip screw compromise the it? Seems people put a couple drops silicone into the hole but I don't know how much it would help.

Thanks in advance!

-X.T.
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Last edited by guoxiaotian; 04-16-2018 at 09:43 PM. Reason: added a question
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:31 AM   #2
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Hi XT,

Regardless which shower floor you use, never allow drilling or other penetrations into the curb. There are numerous references to shower door installation on the forums. Try the search.
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Old 10-09-2018, 10:32 AM   #3
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What thinset to use with Durock Membrane and foam shower pan

Hi all,
I know this topic has been discussed a lot with Schluter Kerdi membrane. I am asking again because I am using Durock membrane which seems to be different and I can't seem to find much information about it. I want to be 100% sure I will be using the right type of thin-set.

There are many stories on Internet about people used modified thin-set, and due to added polymer in the thin-set needs to dry it won't cure properly.

I thought Durock membrane would be similar, but I was surprised to find it on Durock membrane's installation guide, they listed both modified and unmodified thin-set. I am a little puzzled -
- If the polymer in modified thin-set needs to dry, how would it dry when it's applied behind the membrane which is waterproof? I think this is the exact reason many people failed the Schluter membrane installation. I think this would be a problem especially for the base, where it's between the membrane and form pan.
- Is it because the Durock membrane is vapor permeable? I assume it will block water in liquid form not let it pass through in gas form?

Here is the product I will be installing (I am a home owner with no prior experience)

DUROCK-48-in-x-48-in-Shower-Kit-with-Center-Drain

and It will be installed over Durock cement board wall panels.

So I am looking for recommendations on

- Should I go with modified or unmodified thin-set, what's the benefit of modified thin-set over unmodified?
- What brand of thin-set should I use? I heard the quality of the thin-set matters a lot in similar application (Schluter membrane)
- Should I use the same type of thin-set for membrane and tiling?

Thank you in advance!

-X.T.
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Old 10-09-2018, 11:17 AM   #4
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Just dug a bit more on the permeable ratings

Perm rating ASTM E96 Procedure E

Kerdi - 0.90 perms
Kerdi DS - 0.18 perms

USG Durock Waterpoof Membrane - 0.07 perms

So durock membrane has a much lower perms rating. Isn't it supposed to demand unmodified thin-set? I am totally confused.
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Old 10-09-2018, 11:36 AM   #5
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The required use of unmodified thinset mortars is strictly a Schluter creation, Xiaotian. All other manufacturers of direct bonded waterproofing membranes require the use of a modified thinset mortar with their product with the exception of USG which allows either type with their membrane.

No geographic location in your User Profile so I can't guess where in the world you might be, but if you have a Home Depot nearby you can get Custom's VersaBond there which is reasonably priced and will work fine with your Durock membrane.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 10-09-2018, 12:30 PM   #6
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https://www.custombuildingproducts.c...tallations.pdf


Here's a tech bulletin from the custom folks. They definitely are ok with modified thinsets and explain some of the logic behind that. Schluter definitely seems to be the odd man out here.

Wonder if installations in Europe use larger format tile and drying time would be even longer with a modified or that there are so many different flavors of modified that they can't control (and at the time didn't make their own thinset) that they (Schluter) just didn't feel comfortable recommending it. Maybe even a case of we get 3% defects with modified and 2% with unmodified so we're going with unmodified.

I think the only thing that makes sense is to just give it a bit more drying time before grouting when using a modified, especially with larger format tile.

If you go modified and grout the next day with an epoxy grout, does it ever cure? According to the bulletin, there's always going to be a chemical reaction no matter what as there's still water present.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:54 PM   #7
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Not all modified thinsets are created equal...there are at least four different classes of modifiers, then you have the variations in cement particle sizes, aggregate sizes, quantities of modifiers, and other inert and active components. Not all of them need to dry to attain their full strength.

The thinset specifications in Europe use a different rating which allows one to understand those differences. The one in the USA does not, and classes all modifieds the same according to final properties. So, in Europe, they use a modified, partly because they could not get all of the various countries in the Euro zone to agree, while in the USA, they had one agency to approve their recommendation, and chose a premium unmodified, because their research said it works. This is based on information from a Schluter trainer at one of their classes.

Schluter ran one test with a latex modified thinset, bonding a glass panel to Kerdi...it took 80-something days before the middle was dry. Prior to that, the latex modifiers were still flexible, but the cement had long-since cured. Flexing can cause the crystals in the cement to break. Now, the rigid tile spreads the load out over a significant area, but say you used a larger tile. With an unmodified, walking on it the next day should be fine. WIth a latex modified thinset, you'd potentially have some issues.

A modified can end up stronger (that's not always the case depending on the configuration of both). Over a waterproof membrane with fleece, there are limits on what would 'break' first. The fleece would give up long before cured thinset of any type would.

Best thing, follow the manufacturer's instructions. IF they give you a choice, go with the one recommended by all of the component manufacturers. With a porcelain tile, they typically want you to use a modified, but IMHO, over a membrane, a premium unmodified works, too. They have somewhat different characteristics in pot life, and usability, but that is also true between a cheap unmodified and a premium one.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:25 PM   #8
guoxiaotian
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Thank you folks!

I did a little more research and found Durock actually has more than one types of membranes. They did recommend unmodified thin-set for the waterproof/low permeable ones. What makes it very confusing is that their shower system installation guide avoided this by using just 'thin-set'.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:48 PM   #9
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Need advice on how to screw bracket for frameless glass panel.

This is one thing that makes me very nervous about my DIY bathroom reno.

I have learnt that frameless shower doors/panels needs to be planned ahead - double 2x4s to reinforce the wall, so this isn't a problem.

But what makes me very nervous is how the 4 layers of materials handle the load of the door -
- 2x4 into which the screws will be screwed.
- Cement board, the screw will penetrate.
- Durock membrane, the screw will penetrate.
- Ceramic tile, the screw will penetrate.

the 2x4 obviously would bear most of the weight - after all that's why they are added to framing. but what about the cement board and ceramic tile? do they need to share part of the load as well? If the 2x4 behind the cement board yield a little, the screw and the anchor will put a lot of load on the contact point/hole where the screw meets the tile.

If the ceramic tile cannot handle the load (crack). then should I drill the hole a little bigger to give it some clearance? because the tile is set to the membrane, would that force just tear the membrane and the tile would just fell off?

Really appreciate it if someone with experience can give some guidance.

Thanks a lot!

-X.T.
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:47 AM   #10
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From one over-thinker to another, dude, you're over thinking this.

But, because I can sympathize, I'll offer this; my 36X72 3/8" glass door swings on two stout hinges. Those hinges are secured with four 2" (if I recall) SS screws each into the triple 2X6 studs (triple only because I wanted to be certain I didn't catch an edge of a stud) through the tile and Hardi board. Mine has not budged in over....has it really been more than 12 years?

The hinge plates spread the load over the tile, the tile isn't compressible, nor is the Hardi. And in your case the cement board, membrane, with thinset under and over it, isn't going to compress with the load you are applying.

Drill the holes the recommended size, and drill them straight and square. The hole in the tile will be larger than the diameter of the screw, and the screw head counter sink of the hinge will keep them straight. Needless to say, don't over-tighten them.
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:49 AM   #11
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Interesting to know as I'll be using their membrane for my shower....
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Old 10-15-2018, 02:18 PM   #12
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XT, it'll help if you'll keep all your project questions on one thread so folks can see what you're working on and what's been previously asked and answered. A moderator can give it a more generic title any time you'd like to suggest one.

See post #5 about the thinset mortar.
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Old 10-29-2018, 04:07 PM   #13
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Cutting 48x48 Durock shower pan to 34x40 and curved edge

Hi,
I am planning on building a Durock shower system(48x48 pre-sloped, very similar to Schulter's Kerdi system) based alcove shower. The size of the shower would be 34x40 so I have to trim off unequal size width/length wise. Also I might have to accommodate the existing drain location, by cut the pan so the drain is not at center length-wise. After cutting, the edge of the pan would not be at the same level. To avoid the 'curved' plane transition line at the base of the pan, I plan to apply a layer of thinset prior to tile setting to bring them to about the same height at the edge (1/4 to 1/8" thick).

I am thinking doing this by adding some thin-set to the areas that needs to be raised and run a straight bar one end along the raise edges and the other end at the center of drain. and let it completely set/dry before put it in place and set tiles. Would this work? Or people usually do this in one shot while they are setting tiles?

Is this a bad idea? would uneven thickness of thin-set under tiles cause moisture related issues? I have seen the curved edges at shower base in many pictures and I really dislike them.

Thanks,

-X.T.
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Old 10-29-2018, 04:49 PM   #14
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Or, you could make a mud pan that fits perfectly, and costs much less.
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Old 10-29-2018, 06:08 PM   #15
jadnashua
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You don't 'need' a level edge all around, but most people prefer it. If you think about a shower with a linear drain...the walls are not level. It's also easier to get your tile cut so that they fit. Most people have the wall tile over the floor tile, but that's not required, either. If you like the look, you could do the wall tile and then run the floor tile up to it (with a gap), and that would make it easier to conceal the wall tile's cut, but make the floor tile's cut more visible. If you were to use one of Schluter's profiles, one of them has a pocket in it that can help hide any (small) errors in cutting the tile to fit. The advantage to using one of them is to also negate the requirement of any caulking as it is a flexible joint and designed to last the life of the install.

Does their pan come with the waterproofing membrane attached? If not, as long as your thinset layer isn't too thick, you could use it to level it prior to the application of the membrane. Or, if it is, you could install a layer over top after you've leveled things as desired.

But, as said, doing a mudbed is cheaper, and can be made to conform to any drain and shape configuration.
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