Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-16-2018, 09:39 PM   #1
guoxiaotian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 5
Frameless shower panel clips and wedi shower base

Hi all,
I am planning a MB renovation and I want to put a curbless + frameless glass shower in it.
After some research I plan to use Wedi Lingno pan as shower base (this question applies to similar products of different brands, like ARC TreDEK), but I can't decide where to put the brass clip of frameless shower glass panels. which is screwed on to tile floor (and on the wall, into tile and studs behind). The question is, should the clips be screwed inside the Wedi shower pan perimeter or outside? Here is why I think this would make a difference:

- Inside perimeter, pro: most water will hit the panel and drop inside the pan and into the drain, which is water-proof literally to the core. con: the base material is more flexible than subfloor, the brass clip screw will screwed through tile, thinset and into the wedi foam core. with the weigh of the glass all land on 1 or 2 clips, the tile might crack due to the flexibility of the base below it.

- Outside perimeter, pro: the weight of the panel will land on the tile above subfloor, which is more rigid. con: water will flow above/pass the gap between subfloor and Wedi base. Yes, it's sealed, but still, have a safety net would be nice.

I an homeowner and have not done any showers before. so these might not be concern either way or I might have bigger problem to worry with this setup, you advice would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. with all the effort to make things water proof, would the shower glass clip screw compromise the it? Seems people put a couple drops silicone into the hole but I don't know how much it would help.

Thanks in advance!

-X.T.
__________________
XT

Last edited by guoxiaotian; 04-16-2018 at 09:43 PM. Reason: added a question
guoxiaotian is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 04-18-2018, 07:31 AM   #2
John Bridge
Mudmeister
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 67,169
Send a message via AIM to John Bridge
Hi XT,

Regardless which shower floor you use, never allow drilling or other penetrations into the curb. There are numerous references to shower door installation on the forums. Try the search.
John Bridge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2018, 10:32 AM   #3
guoxiaotian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 5
What thinset to use with Durock Membrane and foam shower pan

Hi all,
I know this topic has been discussed a lot with Schluter Kerdi membrane. I am asking again because I am using Durock membrane which seems to be different and I can't seem to find much information about it. I want to be 100% sure I will be using the right type of thin-set.

There are many stories on Internet about people used modified thin-set, and due to added polymer in the thin-set needs to dry it won't cure properly.

I thought Durock membrane would be similar, but I was surprised to find it on Durock membrane's installation guide, they listed both modified and unmodified thin-set. I am a little puzzled -
- If the polymer in modified thin-set needs to dry, how would it dry when it's applied behind the membrane which is waterproof? I think this is the exact reason many people failed the Schluter membrane installation. I think this would be a problem especially for the base, where it's between the membrane and form pan.
- Is it because the Durock membrane is vapor permeable? I assume it will block water in liquid form not let it pass through in gas form?

Here is the product I will be installing (I am a home owner with no prior experience)

DUROCK-48-in-x-48-in-Shower-Kit-with-Center-Drain

and It will be installed over Durock cement board wall panels.

So I am looking for recommendations on

- Should I go with modified or unmodified thin-set, what's the benefit of modified thin-set over unmodified?
- What brand of thin-set should I use? I heard the quality of the thin-set matters a lot in similar application (Schluter membrane)
- Should I use the same type of thin-set for membrane and tiling?

Thank you in advance!

-X.T.
__________________
XT
guoxiaotian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2018, 11:17 AM   #4
guoxiaotian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 5
Just dug a bit more on the permeable ratings

Perm rating ASTM E96 Procedure E

Kerdi - 0.90 perms
Kerdi DS - 0.18 perms

USG Durock Waterpoof Membrane - 0.07 perms

So durock membrane has a much lower perms rating. Isn't it supposed to demand unmodified thin-set? I am totally confused.
__________________
XT
guoxiaotian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2018, 11:36 AM   #5
cx
Da Home Builder
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 86,262
The required use of unmodified thinset mortars is strictly a Schluter creation, Xiaotian. All other manufacturers of direct bonded waterproofing membranes require the use of a modified thinset mortar with their product with the exception of USG which allows either type with their membrane.

No geographic location in your User Profile so I can't guess where in the world you might be, but if you have a Home Depot nearby you can get Custom's VersaBond there which is reasonably priced and will work fine with your Durock membrane.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2018, 12:30 PM   #6
workhurts
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
https://www.custombuildingproducts.c...tallations.pdf


Here's a tech bulletin from the custom folks. They definitely are ok with modified thinsets and explain some of the logic behind that. Schluter definitely seems to be the odd man out here.

Wonder if installations in Europe use larger format tile and drying time would be even longer with a modified or that there are so many different flavors of modified that they can't control (and at the time didn't make their own thinset) that they (Schluter) just didn't feel comfortable recommending it. Maybe even a case of we get 3% defects with modified and 2% with unmodified so we're going with unmodified.

I think the only thing that makes sense is to just give it a bit more drying time before grouting when using a modified, especially with larger format tile.

If you go modified and grout the next day with an epoxy grout, does it ever cure? According to the bulletin, there's always going to be a chemical reaction no matter what as there's still water present.
__________________
Ali
workhurts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2018, 07:54 PM   #7
jadnashua
Veteran DIYer- Schluterville Graduate

STAR Senior Contributor

 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 12,493
Not all modified thinsets are created equal...there are at least four different classes of modifiers, then you have the variations in cement particle sizes, aggregate sizes, quantities of modifiers, and other inert and active components. Not all of them need to dry to attain their full strength.

The thinset specifications in Europe use a different rating which allows one to understand those differences. The one in the USA does not, and classes all modifieds the same according to final properties. So, in Europe, they use a modified, partly because they could not get all of the various countries in the Euro zone to agree, while in the USA, they had one agency to approve their recommendation, and chose a premium unmodified, because their research said it works. This is based on information from a Schluter trainer at one of their classes.

Schluter ran one test with a latex modified thinset, bonding a glass panel to Kerdi...it took 80-something days before the middle was dry. Prior to that, the latex modifiers were still flexible, but the cement had long-since cured. Flexing can cause the crystals in the cement to break. Now, the rigid tile spreads the load out over a significant area, but say you used a larger tile. With an unmodified, walking on it the next day should be fine. WIth a latex modified thinset, you'd potentially have some issues.

A modified can end up stronger (that's not always the case depending on the configuration of both). Over a waterproof membrane with fleece, there are limits on what would 'break' first. The fleece would give up long before cured thinset of any type would.

Best thing, follow the manufacturer's instructions. IF they give you a choice, go with the one recommended by all of the component manufacturers. With a porcelain tile, they typically want you to use a modified, but IMHO, over a membrane, a premium unmodified works, too. They have somewhat different characteristics in pot life, and usability, but that is also true between a cheap unmodified and a premium one.
__________________
Jim DeBruycker
Not a pro, multiple Schluter Workshops (Schluterville and 2013 and 2014 at Schluter Headquarters), Mapei Training 2014, Laticrete Workshop 2014, Custom Building Products Workshop 2015, and Longtime Forum Participant.
jadnashua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2018, 11:25 PM   #8
guoxiaotian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 5
Thank you folks!

I did a little more research and found Durock actually has more than one types of membranes. They did recommend unmodified thin-set for the waterproof/low permeable ones. What makes it very confusing is that their shower system installation guide avoided this by using just 'thin-set'.
__________________
XT
guoxiaotian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2018, 11:48 PM   #9
guoxiaotian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 5
Need advice on how to screw bracket for frameless glass panel.

This is one thing that makes me very nervous about my DIY bathroom reno.

I have learnt that frameless shower doors/panels needs to be planned ahead - double 2x4s to reinforce the wall, so this isn't a problem.

But what makes me very nervous is how the 4 layers of materials handle the load of the door -
- 2x4 into which the screws will be screwed.
- Cement board, the screw will penetrate.
- Durock membrane, the screw will penetrate.
- Ceramic tile, the screw will penetrate.

the 2x4 obviously would bear most of the weight - after all that's why they are added to framing. but what about the cement board and ceramic tile? do they need to share part of the load as well? If the 2x4 behind the cement board yield a little, the screw and the anchor will put a lot of load on the contact point/hole where the screw meets the tile.

If the ceramic tile cannot handle the load (crack). then should I drill the hole a little bigger to give it some clearance? because the tile is set to the membrane, would that force just tear the membrane and the tile would just fell off?

Really appreciate it if someone with experience can give some guidance.

Thanks a lot!

-X.T.
guoxiaotian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2018, 06:47 AM   #10
ss3964spd
Registered User
 
ss3964spd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fairfax, Va
Posts: 1,265
Send a message via Yahoo to ss3964spd
From one over-thinker to another, dude, you're over thinking this.

But, because I can sympathize, I'll offer this; my 36X72 3/8" glass door swings on two stout hinges. Those hinges are secured with four 2" (if I recall) SS screws each into the triple 2X6 studs (triple only because I wanted to be certain I didn't catch an edge of a stud) through the tile and Hardi board. Mine has not budged in over....has it really been more than 12 years?

The hinge plates spread the load over the tile, the tile isn't compressible, nor is the Hardi. And in your case the cement board, membrane, with thinset under and over it, isn't going to compress with the load you are applying.

Drill the holes the recommended size, and drill them straight and square. The hole in the tile will be larger than the diameter of the screw, and the screw head counter sink of the hinge will keep them straight. Needless to say, don't over-tighten them.
__________________
Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent, but my ability to access it is intermittent.
ss3964spd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2018, 06:49 AM   #11
ss3964spd
Registered User
 
ss3964spd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fairfax, Va
Posts: 1,265
Send a message via Yahoo to ss3964spd
Interesting to know as I'll be using their membrane for my shower....
__________________
Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent, but my ability to access it is intermittent.
ss3964spd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2018, 02:18 PM   #12
cx
Da Home Builder
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 86,262
XT, it'll help if you'll keep all your project questions on one thread so folks can see what you're working on and what's been previously asked and answered. A moderator can give it a more generic title any time you'd like to suggest one.

See post #5 about the thinset mortar.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kerdi and Frameless Glass - Framing ? travish19 Tile Forum/Advice Board 5 10-24-2015 07:11 AM
Installing a frameless glass shower. Freddmc Tile Forum/Advice Board 4 09-13-2011 06:33 PM
Frameless Shower Glass Questions Gunny74 Tile Forum/Advice Board 5 07-03-2005 09:35 PM
Frameless Shower Glass Enclosure alanbn Tile Forum/Advice Board 23 12-15-2003 01:52 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:49 AM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC