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Old 05-03-2019, 12:15 PM   #1
DragonQueen
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DQ's small old bathroom remodel

Hi there everyone. I have been lurking and have gotten a good amount of info from other threads, so I am quite certain I can now get into loads of trouble with it. So I am looking at getting some input and fine tuning tips from those who have seen the good and the stupid done already.
Our house is a 1919 single story with an unfinished basement. Floor joists are 2x8, 24" OC and a 11'5" span, yes we will be sistering and/or adding a support beam midway. The subfloor is 1x4 on a diagonal and there is a 1/2" ply and vinyl flooring currently. It is a 7'3" x 6'4" with the door on a long side and a window on the opposite long side. This is my current floorplan that I am looking/working on I have already discarded several.
We are planning on using the kerdi system and I am hoping to get a curbless or nearly so floor. However I don't want to raise the height transition to far above the hallway carpet, which currently is above the vinyl 1/4-3/8" I believe.

So first question, if I do a dropped subfloor that would give me 1 1/4"of space and my understanding is that the subfloor between the joists would need to be 3/4" ply, but I have been seeing conflicting info on what thickness the layer on top of that would need to be. Currently no I do not know how level the floor is or humps or dips. I am looking at the 55" x 55" center linear drain from Schluter and cut about 9 1/2" off both sides parallel to the drain, which should leave that side of the pan 1 1/4" thick.

2. Partition wall between the shower and toilet, I don't want to go more than 2" past the edge of the window, which would have a 2 inch wall or have part of the wall inside the window frame. A glass partition is a big NO, however I was looking at possibly a few glass blocks for natural light in that partition for the toilet stall.

Thank You for any and all input
PS I am currently looking at 12x12 or 12x24 tile hence the linear drain.
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Old 05-03-2019, 12:28 PM   #2
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oops and I am looking at the ditra for underlay outside of the shower.
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Old 05-03-2019, 02:55 PM   #3
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Welcome, Carie.

It'll help if you'll attach that drawing as a JPG so it appears in your post and it'll help even more if you bear down a bit more on your pencil, eh?

You do understand that one of the reasons for using mosaic tiles on shower floors is to reduce the slip/fall hazard, yes? While there are large format tiles with higher DCOF, all ceramic tiles are slippery when wet. While it might be aesthetically pleasing to have those large tiles on your shower floor, you might be creating more of a problem for yourself than you anticipate.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 05-04-2019, 12:21 AM   #4
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I was wondering about that, I will go back over it in pen tomorrow and see if I can get the size right to attach a jpg.
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Old 05-04-2019, 08:04 AM   #5
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Hopefully this is better.
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Old 05-04-2019, 10:33 AM   #6
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If you are putting plywood between the joists and plywood on the top of the joists + plywood, the upper layer can be no less than 3/8" cc or better. Round these parts 1/2" BC is much easier to find.

To be sure you have the right pitch in the shower pan, place the drain where you want it, then measure from the drain to the furthest point. With that measurement in mind, the floor has to drop 1/4" per foot from that point.
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Old 05-04-2019, 10:55 AM   #7
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Paul, I think you'll find in the ANSI A108 standard that subfloor dropped on cleats between the joists would come under the "tongue and grooved boards, or other structural subflooring," and require a minimum of nominal 1/2" plywood over it for residential use.
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Old 05-04-2019, 02:01 PM   #8
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So starting from the joists, 1/2 inch ply plus 1 1/4 floor pan, including morter would be just under 2" plus tile correct?
So for the rest of the bathroom if I leave the 1x4 subfloor and 3/4 ply plus ditra and morter, should also be just under 2"?
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Old 05-04-2019, 03:06 PM   #9
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Now that I see the drawing I see some issues.

First to catch my eye is that you have insufficient space for your toilet to meet code. You must have a minimum of 15 inches from the drain center line to the finished wall on each side.

Second, if I'm reading your drawing correctly that sorta crosshatched little rectangle in the shower is the linear drain? If so, your shower receptor is still gonna be somewhat bowl shaped and you'll not be able to consider using those large tiles you want on the shower floor. Large format tiles can be used, un-judiciously in my view, with a linear drain when the drain is located at one end of the shower footprint or in the center, but in any case extending from one side of the shower to the other, providing a slope that is a single plane or two flat planes in the case of the center linear drain. You don't have that layout at all.

I don't see any advantage at all to using a linear drain in the configuration I see in your drawing unless it's just an aesthetic consideration or you have a budget you are required to exceed on this project.

Third, I see absolutely no advantage to using a pre-fabricated foam tray for your receptor that doesn't even come close to fitting your shower footprint. Regardless what center drain you elect to use, I'd strongly recommend you create your floor using deck mud to perfectly fit your shower footprint and drain location. Substantial money savings in that, 'specially if you switch from the little linear drain to a regular Kerdi drain.

Dropping the subflooring between joists on ledger boards for a ceramic tile installation is actually based upon joist spacing of no more than 16" on center. With your wider spacing you're pushing the envelope even with the nominal half-inch plywood over that subflooring. Keep in mind that with the dropped subflooring, each of your joist bays cuts your subfloor into a single span rather than the multiple bay spans generally required in subflooring calculations. Even if you properly orient your plywood with the strength axis perpendicular to the joists, you don't have the same subfloor you'd have if you laid longer pieces on top of multiple joists.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Old 05-04-2019, 03:44 PM   #10
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So on the toliet it is existing. Currently centerline is 13 inches from one wall and 7 inches to pipes on the other.
OK so what if it was a 90 angle on the wall, or a standard box with an opening in the same place?
I dislike all of the smaller tiles I have looked at so far, which is why I was looking at linear drains.
I will have my husband read that last paragraph for his brain on any solutions for that part. Thanks for input.
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Old 05-04-2019, 04:09 PM   #11
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Carie - it’s helpful to note original (as-built) versus new / modified areas in your drawings. So it sounds like the toilet will remain offset with the original waste pipe, or are you planning move it and the waste lines?

I agree with CX concerns about recessing the subfloor between the joists. I’ve seen it done well by a few folks like Dan (ss3964spd), however it is a tricky operation and a lot of work to save 3/4”.

How tall are the ceiling; are you severely height restricted?
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Old 05-04-2019, 11:33 PM   #12
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Sorry, the existing didn't cross my mind, I don't want to move the toliet my husband has talked about it. The shower is the same location as the tub currently. That plumbing is moving and the vanity is currently across from the window next to the door, also moving. The ceiling is currently 8'3", we will be putting a layer of greenboard on it instead of taking it down like the lathe and plaster on the walls.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:07 AM   #13
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With a 8’ + ceiling I’d skip recessing the subflooor. Are you planning the remove all of the diagonal plank subfloor? Sounds like you’ll need to in order to double to all the joists and reset your plumbing.

Given the wide spacing of your joists I’d use 3/4 subfloor for first layer with at least 5/8” for second layer. Or you can lug up some of the 1 1/8” Advantech subfloor and skip the second layer as it’s rated for 2’ joist spacing under tile.

I too have a historical house with a toiler squeezed into a tight space. I’d take advantage of this opportunity to at least center ir in the space you have available.

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Old 05-05-2019, 07:31 AM   #14
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CX I don't understand why it would be bowl shaped, that 55' tray is a v shape so the first opening would slope into the shower is my understanding of the pan.
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:43 AM   #15
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My reasoning for looking at a recessed subfloor is so the bathroom floor isn't a lot higher that the hallway. I was looking at a curb less shower, but it looks like I might be able to do one or the other not both.
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