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Unread 06-05-2010, 09:30 PM   #1
Apt4C
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curbless shower (or almost curbless)

Hello All,
I am redoing my small bathroom 11 x 5.5 ft.
I am ripping up everything and starting from scratch.
The bathroom is quite small and further limited by the placement of drains and plumbing that i decided not to mess with too much since i live in an apartment building.

therefore, to maximize space i would like to rip out the tub and have a curbless shower instead where the entire bathroom is one big shower stall with toilet and a wall hung sink within. please see attached drawings.

if zero curb is impossible, i could live with a curb like in the photo attached.

yes, i would need to use expensive linear drain (and get to use nice big tiles!) but that might be worth the cost to me if my bathroom will make me happy every morning as i start my day...

in preparation for the bathroom remodel, I am educating myself on this fantastic forum for months now and am aware of waterproofing issues, slope requirements etc. Still far from being an expert. But here is what I came up with so far:

shower wall:
I am thinking of using RedGard over cement board on the entire wall where shower is situated and tile it floor to ceiling.

floor:
If i go with linear drain, I would use quickdrain + quickslope + nobleseal + 20x20 tile on the floor. If I go with regular drain and 4 way slope i would use Kerdi shower pan + drain + kerdi membrane or noble seal + 1x1 mosaic porcelain tile. in both cases the sub-floor would be recessed to accommodate shower pan/slope. you will also notice from my drawing that there are doors to adjacent rooms on both sides which makes the floor waterproofing and drainage even more complicated. moving the door is not an option since there are drain pipes for the whole building runing through the walls.

remaining 3 walls + ceiling:
I am trying to avoid tiling the remaining three walls and ceiling (due to limited $$$). If that is ok, I would use green board (yes, ceiling joists are spaced 12 in apart to accept green board) with Benjamin Moore Bath & Spa Aura Paint over it. There is a window in the bathroom but I might consider installing a fan as well to help with the vapor/condesation issues. What kind/strength of fan would be recommended?

What do you think?

Any responses will be very greatly appreciated.
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Unread 06-05-2010, 10:34 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apt4c
20x20 tile on the floor.
Comment on the linear drain plan. That picture you posted looks great, really nice and clean. That being said, 20x20's in a shower is a questionable idea in my book. Even if you get a tile with a little tooth to it, its still gonna be slippery. You've basically built a sloped ramp that you know is gonna get water/shampoo/conditioner/etc/etc on it and I thinks its a hazard.

I'd go with smaller tiles in the field and the large ones on the border. Opinions are gonna vary, but thats my 2cents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apt4c
There is a window in the bathroom but I might consider installing a fan as well
I think a fan is an excellent idea. Money well spent in my book. There are lots of good ones, kinda have to determine your price point and go from there.

Especially with a curbless shower, another thing I would do is extend the waterproofing so it covers the entire floor. With a room that small it won't be a great deal of extra expense, and well worth it to me.
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Last edited by Deckert; 06-05-2010 at 10:41 PM.
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Unread 06-06-2010, 06:18 AM   #3
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Thank you very much for the quick responses.

I didn't think of the slipping hazard at all -- that is a very valid point. Thanks. However, I would like to avoid mixing tile because I am looking to achieve a super clean look. I think minimalist approach is the only chance this small bathroom has. So I might go with 1x1 mosaic all over.

As for fan, i didn't have a chance to look into them and don't know the prices yet. Of course, the cheaper -- the better. What should be the minimum specs I should look for?

Waterproofing for the entire floor is a plan in any case. Sorry, if that wasn't clear in my initial post.

From the comments so far, it seems both of my plans are sound provided that they are executed correctly. If that is so, my biggest worry in this phase is not having tile on the remaining three walls. Is green board with bm bath paint really going to work? I lived in several rented apartments where this combination only meant trouble (bubbling/peeling paint, mold colonies). Should I RedGard the green board before paint?
Can you paint over RedGard?
Or should I RedGard + skim coat the wall with setting compound + paint?
How do I resolve tiled floor to painted wall transition?
I would like to avoid a row of tile as a baseboard. Do I have to use Schluter Dilex or similar product?

It is hard to believe there are no overall objections to the plans. All I know about bathrooms comes, in largest part, from this forum. I learned that good planing is a key so please shout if you see any red flags before it is too late!

Thanks again.
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Unread 06-06-2010, 08:53 AM   #4
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one more idea:
should I paint Thoroseal Waterproofing Paint directly over green board?
Or is this overkill and Benjamin More Bath Paint will suffice?
This still doesn't resolve clean tiled floor to wall transition issue without using baseboard tile or Dilex.

Is cement board + RedGard + skim coat setting compound better?
Would that allow clean tiled floor to wall transition without any kind of baseboard/dilex/etc in between?

Hope someone is out there listening...
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Unread 06-06-2010, 09:06 AM   #5
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One more big concern:
Is there some kind of issue with my 1-way quickslope + linear quickdrain scheme where two different planes divided by a flat stainelss steel bar meet (ex. in terms of movement or something else compromising the soundness of such installation)?

Sorry for over-posting -- just trying to get it all out there before I do anything stupid.
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Unread 06-06-2010, 09:35 AM   #6
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the fan should go into the wall since there is no space in the ceiling, here is a ductless cheap thing I googled up:

NuTone 682NT Ductless Bathroom Fan for Wall or Ceiling Installation
$25

The Nutone Ductless Bathroom Exhaust Fan can be installed in the ceiling or in a wall and does not require any ducting. An activated charcoal filter keeps the air fresh. The motor is 120 volts with a 1.0 amp rating and can be removed for cleaning and service. The exhaust fan is 8-1/2 inches square, and features a white polymeric grille with tension spring mounting. Optional control switches are available separately. Choose the Variable Speed Decorator Wall Control, the Two-Function Rocker Control, or the Single-Function Rocker Control, which are available in Ivory or White. The fan is IC rated and UL listed. [/i]

Is this, together with a window going to do the job?

last over-post -- I promisse
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Unread 06-06-2010, 09:36 AM   #7
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Welcome, Apt4c. Please change your permanent signature line to reflect a first name for us to use. We're a pretty friendly group hereabouts.

Having an operable window in a bathroom and using that as a reason not to have a vent fan has never made any sense to me. Even if the window remained open much of the time, which it will not, it still doesn't do much of anything to remove moisture from the room. I put an adequate vent in every bathroom, windows on no.

How much vent do you need? Depends upon the size of your room and how you use it, mostly. I think the national standard is for an air exchange every 7 or 8 minutes. I like a bit more than that, something closer to 5 minutes or less.

You pay a good deal more for quiet fans, but they're worth the price just because you're more likely to actually use them.

Having a useful ventilation system in there renders moot the problem of wall covering. A good quality latex paint will be more than adequate outside the wet areas and there is no need for any blue or green or purple sheetrock anywhere in that room. Or any other room, for that matter. Plain sheetrock is fine unless you must meet some sort of outdated local code.

Your shower pan arrangement is gonna need to meet plumbing code unless you're planning to build to ADA standards and claim such use. I can't tell from your description whether you intend that nor if you can accommodate all the requirements.

Not sure I understand any/all the question about the floor/wall junctions.

[Edit]

The "ductless" fan you added there is not gonna remove the moisture from your room, which is the primary goal of such an installation.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 06-06-2010, 10:30 AM   #8
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Thanks CX.
The name is Tom. I will change this in my profile when i find out how.

I am not sure what is the best way to get this approved. That is the next step to be figured out after I know what I want / can do. I am familiar with ADA and the code requirements to some degree. Basically, ADA showers have to be minimum 30x60 in and code requires the drain to be 2" below the plane with slope no less than 1/4" but no more than 1/2" per foot. I work at an architectural office so I have relatively easy access to this information and hope I will be able to make my case somehow if I figure all this out.

As far as tiled floor to wall transition, I did a quick sketch of what I mean. Please see attached drawings. Hope this makes it clear. My question is can I achieve the first option where there is no visible transitional piece of any kind between wall and floor so they meet at a 90 degree angle?

I would like to avoid plastering the wall since i don't trust my skills with that. However, I think, I could deal with some kind of skim coat, if that is the answer to my transition issue. if so, what kind of substrate and compound could I use?

If not, would Schluter Dilex work?
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Unread 06-06-2010, 10:56 AM   #9
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Smile euro bath in america

You need to allow for an expansion joint around the entire perimeter of your floor.

Perhaps use a noble or hydroban membrane underneath the entire floor and flash it up the bottom of the wall. Then use a base tile made from the floor tile if a matching trim piece was not available (conceal the flashed waterproofing). You then could use the schluter products at the wall/floor transition and at the top of the base to tie them together visually.

Base is set on top of the floor tile, this allows for concealment of the expansion joint.

Since you live in an apartment with other tenants/owners living below waterproofing the entire floor with a flashed floor/wall transition is cheap insurance for "peace" and "peace of mind" between your neighbors and yourself

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Unread 06-06-2010, 11:02 AM   #10
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best fan solution, high performance and super quiet

http://www.fantech.net/


certainly not $25, but you will not hear a rattle on day one or many years down the road.
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Unread 06-06-2010, 11:03 AM   #11
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RE: Fan

CX, i get it, i calculated the room volume and turns out I need around 110 CFM fan for that space to achieve what you are talking about. We are talking +/- $150 for the 'ultra quiet' at home depot. But, I just looked up installation instructions and I don't think I have a way of installing the duct type of fan in my apt building.

Could anyone recommend a type of fan suitable for apartments?
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Unread 06-06-2010, 11:15 AM   #12
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Thanks for the link MM.

The bathroom fans you recommend would require considerable HVAC engineering effort which I don't think I can pull of.

Is there another reasonably priced 'ductless' fan solution that will be possible in my case?

Any other ideas/comments on the bathroom design, anybody?
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Unread 06-06-2010, 11:32 AM   #13
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Tom, Fantech's customer support is very good and they will assist you if you care to vest the time and effort. Electrical supply wholesalers stock a better quality of fan product than you will find at HD or Lowes. It is worth the trip to the supply house to find product vs off the HD shelf.

I posted this link to show you there are some "out of the box" solutions for difficult installations. I have used this product with great success and customer satisfaction.


jsyk, USG's own product guide specifies green sheetrock for wall use (not ceilings).



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Unread 06-06-2010, 11:43 AM   #14
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thanks MM.
hmm, i am not sure i understand what is the expansin joint. I'll look it up.

From what i understand you are suggesting a tile baseboard ie. having a row of tiles aligned along the bottom of the wall which is what i want to avoid.

Is there a way to have no baseboard of any kind (please see attached images)?
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Unread 06-06-2010, 11:57 AM   #15
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What Michael is tryin' to 'splain you is that you must have a movement accommodation joint around the entire perimeter of your tile installation, regardless the final aesthetic treatment of that joint.

The joint can be open, as when just covered by baseboard or shoe mould, or it can be filled with an appropriate flexible sealant (caulking). How you manage the aesthetics is entirely up to you, but you must provide that gap.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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