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Unread 04-01-2012, 03:03 PM   #16
Gordon Kaske
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Bekotec

That product is more for a slab that was not insulated, and radiant was an after thought. It would add lots of additional load to the floor not to mention the extreme build up compared to a sandwich.


One has to look at response time also. Sandwich will give the quickest over underfloor suspended tube, staple up, and above floor gypcrete.
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Unread 04-01-2012, 03:06 PM   #17
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Nice Job glad to see you used the heavy gauge plates instead of the light weight plates. What kind of supply temps are you using at design temp?
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Unread 04-01-2012, 06:48 PM   #18
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Supply temp of 120. Used the Thermofin thick plates, pricey but worth it. I used a lot of information from the radiant heat forum at radnet.groupee. Alas, that forum seems to have disappeared since the last time I was on it. I remember NRT Radiant out of Maine as being most helpful.
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Unread 04-01-2012, 08:10 PM   #19
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Yes a very informative site when in action. Another, and more informational is heatinghelp.com. NRT. Rob frequents there now.



I'm perplexed I do not see more radiant questions on a tile forum.
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Unread 04-01-2012, 09:48 PM   #20
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Gordon,

What a beautiful job! How would it compare with using copper vs. pex for cost and ease of installation?

Boy, I'd think you want to make sure you have a really skilled plumber/solderer. I'd be paranoid about leaking joints! At least pex I know I can lay down myself and one continuous loop sort of fool proofs that part (as long as someone doesn't nail a hole in it!)

Yes, I came across NRT at a forum for radiant, and I was so impressed by his free advise that I hired them for my basement radiant job. I feel sort of guilty asking questions to NRT without properly paying a fee! I figured I can find out some things on my own, rather than pester them with these kinds of questions. (So I pester here )

I will pose the question to them on what would it do to cost to go from 1/2" to 3/8" pex. I would assume closer loops, more pipe, more sleepers, so higher materials cost, and who knows what the snowball effect when you look at manifold needs, pipe runs, pump requirements, etc. etc. But that my not be possible because of my heat loads anyway, since I know the first time they took a look at my main floor design, I needed the thermal plates only in certain rooms. Not sure if closer loops would eliminate that. Or if there are plates for smaller diameter pipe. I guess I can always ask about their recommendation to reduce height and see what they come up with. Worse they would say is we need a fee for that kind of services. I don't want to get ahead of myself paying the design fee just yet, since we're still awaiting an appraisal and bank approval to proceed.

My floors are only 8'1" tall, so I know height is at a premium. One question that occurred to me was do the sleepers for radiant go in before drywall or after? If before, would I leave a gap at the wall edges? Otherwise I was thinking that if not, then the drywallers will need to cut drywall sheets to fit anything less than 8ft, since I'll lose some of that spare 1" to the ceiling drywall. I know they are fast, but more costs, will = more labor hours.

Plus I'm also concurrently investigating how to handle 24+ inches of cellulose in my attic, and it appears that I'll have to add a layer of OSB before ceiling drywall since my trusses are 24" o.c., thus reducing my floor height even more. So the less I have to take for room on the floor, the better.

But that would mean more R, which should translate into less heat load, since I'm also skimcoating the ceiling drywall with 2# foam to seal air infiltration. And that could mean 3/8" pipe may be enough to serve the new loads. It all hinges on finding a cellulose sub for the walls. Anyone know where they sell those dense pack cellulose batts for walls for a DIY? Attic cellulose we can handle, is the dense pack/wet spray that I want to hire someone, and so far no one in my area seems to do it.

I had heard of the warm floor panels, but I already had my subfloor in by then, so didn't look any further.

I got a crazy thought, instead of having to use plywood sleepers, could I use 1x3, one on each side of the pipe? I would avoid having to rip plywood. The question would be what to fill in the middle, and how would it compare costwise vs. plywood sleepers, not to mention comparison of labor. SLC with foam beads?

I sorely regret not going with double bottom plates.

Sorry, I tend to get wordy

Thanks.
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Unread 04-01-2012, 09:55 PM   #21
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Ok. It's late, and not thinking clearly. If I'm willing to go with SLC, why would I need sleepers?



Good night.
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Unread 04-02-2012, 04:44 AM   #22
Gordon Kaske
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Talking Vanessa

Slow down, and breathe,

Drywall first then do the sleepers. you do not want all the construction traffic filling the grooves with garbage you have to clean out anyway.

Copper costs have gone through the roof since I did that room, so pex, and plates are cheaper. All though copper has superior heat transfer over pex. My house has radiant ceilings with 3/8" copper 6" on center also so I'mn sitting on a gold mine. I did copper because I like to work with it. Thought about skipping the tile and doing a plexiglass floor


You can use 3/8" pex they make plates for that size. Just watch your loop lengths keep them about 200' with leaders included. this reduces headloss for the circulator.


Look into Warm board they now make a 5/8" thick for retro work. Warm board has superior heat transfer due to its continuous aluminum skin. Cost may be high though.


I would use plywood for sleepers it is more stable than 1x lumber. remember you will be thinsetting the backer board to it, so moisture will do some things to 1x material. Less likley to split while screwing backer board also.



Get your heatloss first this will determine centers of tubing, plates no plates, and water supply temps. The most you can get out of RFH is 35 btus a sf with out exceeding the 85* floor surface temp for comfort.
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Unread 04-05-2012, 11:11 PM   #23
Boontucky-girl
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Thanks.

I was very disappointed that I finally found a tiler who does work with ditra, only to have him tell me that he checked with schluter, and ditra directly over my sandwich install is not approved. They know it gets done, but it is not an approved method by schluter.

However, he did say that there is a 1/4" dense board made of gypsum that i could use between the sandwich and the ditra, and schluter is ok with ditra over this dense gypsum board (can't recall brand name). It would save me from having to use cement board.

I was happy to hear this same tiler will not do a shower unless a waterproofing membrane is applied. He works with kerdi but also mentioned another membrane (not redgard). He said it looks like pouring liquid tar that turns to a rubber sheet. He expressed this product is cheaper than kerdi.

So, if I can get my radiant to work with the heat loads using 3/8" tubes, put this 1/4" product on, then ditra, then tile, I think I might be looking at keeping it less than 1.5" I am getting a bid for this tile job, and he'll also price using this black rubber membrane to compare vs. the kerdi/ditra.

He also did not seem concerned on how to transition between that and carpet, and between tile and wood. So i am making progress.

I will look into the warmboard panels. They may be more expensive, but would save me the labor to cut all 'em sleepers myself and installing them.

I am getting bids for the insulation part of our project, and if I can afford what I want, I may end up with R30 walls and R90 roof, with very little air infiltration and hopefully that will translate into very low heat loads = no plates = cheaper install of my radiant. And maybe 3/8 tubes will work out.

V
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Unread 04-05-2012, 11:12 PM   #24
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BTW, a plexiglass floor over that beautiful copper radiant would be very sharp.

Hope you have a great security system as well.

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Unread 04-06-2012, 04:16 PM   #25
Gordon Kaske
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Vanessa

Why the Ditra obsession? Why not tile right to 1/4" Hardi Backer fastened to the sleepers as I did? It would save another process, and another layer of build up for the floor.

With that kind of insulation I'm sure you will have no trouble satisfying that heat load. What is your design temp for your heatload calcs?

Roth by uponor also makes panels with a continuous aluminum sheet. 8.48 a sf.

There is also wisbro quiktrack.
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Last edited by Gordon Kaske; 04-06-2012 at 04:21 PM.
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Unread 04-08-2012, 09:48 PM   #26
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My idea was to make a waterproof bath, all the way to the walls. My understanding was that ditra would do that on top of adding the separation membrane. The initial comment was that I could lay ditra right over without the need of the cement board, so that's why I searched for an installer that worked with the product.

I've talked with a couple of tilers about the shower, and the two other I spoke with tile right over cement board over the studs, and one suggested we could use Poly to "waterproof". I really want a waterproof shower since I'm very familiar with that water getting behind tile and ruining the walls!

So if the quote for the tile is less with that waterproofing membrane that is not ditra, or kerdi for that matter, I'll go with that over the 1/4" board over radiant. Final decision will come to budget, and the lowest floor height build up while still achieving the waterproofing that I want.

The design temp initially was 115. That was before we had decided to go with higher insulation in the attic, so that should be good news for the temp needed to meet the loads.

I have not had a chance to look at Wirsbo or uponor for their track and compare vs. the sleeper method. I'll have to see how that would compare with plates and plywood. I did ask NRT some questions regarding the new insulation value for the attic, since I am wondering if with the higher R-value we eliminated he need for the heavy plates on some of the rooms. We'll see what the answers are!

Thanks.
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Unread 04-26-2012, 11:15 AM   #27
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Support rating

I looked up the specs for my subfloor.

I have 11 7/8" I-joists, 16" o.c. The manufacturers book says 19'4" of simple continuous span is rated at L/480, and 21'1" is rated at L/360.
The span under my master bath is 16'5", which I'm assuming means is L/480 or slightly better.
I have 3/4" Advantech OSB for a subfloor.

The plan now is do the sandwich radiant over the 3/4" osb with 3/4" ply sleepers + 1/4" denseshield + either ditra or some other waterproofing membrane + tile over that.

Is this enough for ceramic tile?

If I am able to afford a stone tile, what would I need to do to bring my floor support up to reach an L/720?

Thanks.
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