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Unread 10-13-2019, 04:51 PM   #1
man-o-media
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Tile over tile, Laticrete for cubby cutout?

Well, after probably 10 years of lurking, reading, two completed bathrooms from the studs and several other less dramatic tile projects, I finally have some specific questions...

The situation is a 1970s tar paper, lath, cement, tile - tub surround.
Tub and walls are in perfect condition, no cracks, scratches, etc so the plan is to tile over the existing tile. I know, not necessarily the best idea but...

FYI, planning to break the glazed surface with a diamond grinding cup.

I'm considering cutting a hole out to build an in-wall cubby, about 30" x 10" with a middle shelf and I'm pondering the best vapor barrier solution.
No matter what I do it won't be perfectly contiguous with the tar paper but once its mounted, if I coat the back and sides where it meets the tar paper, it will be decent. The other possibility would be to overlap onto the old tile surface a bit. That in fact may be the better option as it would allow mounting the cubby box by simply drilling and screwing through the tiles and cement.

If the overlap is only a few inches it would not create a vapor barrier sandwich but any 'moisture' that manages to work it's way through to either the tar paper or the Hydro Barrier would still run down and stay inside.
The cubby would also be at the far side wall so relatively far away from any direct water spray.

I'll leave it at that for the moment, need some dinner...

Thanks in advance.
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Unread 10-13-2019, 05:59 PM   #2
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Welcome, DP.

I think I'd check with a manufacturer of tile installation products to see if their tile-over-tile membrane will work without trying to remove the glaze from your existing tile. Would save a whole gaggle of work and dust. I know MAPEI makes EcoPrim Grip, but their instructions seem a bit vague on the installation over glazed tile. I'd wanna call their tech services number for a specific reading on that.

We have a MAPEI rep onboard, but I haven't seen his smiling face for a while. I'll try to ping him and have him look in here.

Custom Building Products makes a similar product, but I disremember what it's called.

You do not have, nor do you need, a "vapor barrier" anywhere in your shower. You do need proper waterproofing, but I think your plan for the niche should be sufficient if properly executed.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 10-13-2019, 06:36 PM   #3
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Thanks CX and good timing - dinner is done...

Quote:
Custom Building Products makes a similar product
That would be MBP - Multi-Surface Bonding Primer. And they say it is "Suitable for Non-Porous and Porous Surfaces including Porcelain and ceramic tiles with glazed or smooth surfaces."

I did glance at it but while I'll be the first to admit that some of the magic products made today do more than can be imagined (read super-glue), I have a tough time believing it is really as good as it needs to be. Then again, its not exactly holding up Mt Everest either. And I have not yet read the instructions so I will reconsider and look at the MAPEI stuff too.
That all said, it's not a done deal but it's looking like the wall tiles will be 6x18 so not huge but not small, thin and light either...

I just looked at the instructions and while there is specific mention of floors, they really do not mention walls.

And yes, I said vapor barrier but indeed, it's moisture. To the point though, glad someone agrees that it's at least a reasonable design idea.
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Unread 10-14-2019, 07:10 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
I'll try to ping him and have him look in here.
Thanks for the ping, good sir

Quote:
Originally Posted by man-o-media
I will reconsider and look at the MAPEI stuff too.
Please do! It's not a gallon of snake oil in the least. To answer the questions I saw above (let me know if there are more):

No, you do not need to abrade the existing tile. You certainly can, as it will only help the bond, but it is not required.

Yes, Eco Prim Grip is perfectly suitable for walls.

The only real prep for this product is making sure the existing tile is clean and well-bonded.

I hope that helps!
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Unread 10-16-2019, 11:59 AM   #5
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Thanks Holden,
Quote:
It's not a gallon of snake oil
Good thing, a slippery surface would make things really frustrating

So how the heck does this stuff work?
I honestly have always had questions about how something like Redgard or Laticrete Hydro Barrier bridge the requirements of being a virtually waterproof layer while maintaining the ability for thinset to hold, It's rather along the lines of Superman grabbing Lois Lane:
Quote:
Superman:
Easy, miss. I've got you.
Lois Lane:
You, you've got me? Who's got you?
Obviously it works but it seems at times counter-intuitive.
Clearly an abraded tile could be a pretty good substrate as it will (I should think) act similarly to other porous surfaces and give the hydration / crystallization process something to work with.
Now we are talking about a glazed, somewhat impregnable surface. Just don't seem right :-)

That said, I guess this stuff allows moisture to easily pass through? Otherwise it would be creating a vapor sandwich. Is it really just as simple as; its glue like quality allows the Eco Prim Grip to bond to the glazed surface while its structure gives the thinset what it needs to lock into? And even allows the thinset to grab into whatever it can of the tile surface on the other side of the primer?
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Unread 10-18-2019, 04:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by man-o-media
Thanks Holden,
Quote:
It's not a gallon of snake oil
Good thing, a slippery surface would make things really frustrating
Agreed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by man-o-media
So how the heck does this stuff work?
Obviously it works but it seems at times counter-intuitive.
Clearly an abraded tile could be a pretty good substrate as it will (I should think) act similarly to other porous surfaces and give the hydration / crystallization process something to work with.
Now we are talking about a glazed, somewhat impregnable surface. Just don't seem right :-)

That said, I guess this stuff allows moisture to easily pass through? Otherwise it would be creating a vapor sandwich. Is it really just as simple as; its glue like quality allows the Eco Prim Grip to bond to the glazed surface while its structure gives the thinset what it needs to lock into? And even allows the thinset to grab into whatever it can of the tile surface on the other side of the primer?
Eco Prim Grip is a ridiculously sticky acrylic resin that was designed to be used over semi-to-nonporous surfaces. So it is right at home bonding to the face of ceramic tile! Once you roll it out, you will see that there is no way to create a completely impermeable surface with this product due to the sand in it. So, to your point, yes it will let moisture move in and out as needed.

Yes, a well-ground tile will create a porous and suitable surface for some, more premium, mortar products; but why make all that mess and break your back grinding the glaze off if you don’t have to?

All that said, we just (and I mean just) released a new product called Primer X, which is like Eco Prim Grip on steroids. This stuff will stick to darn near anything!
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Unread 10-18-2019, 05:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Eco Prim Grip is a ridiculously sticky ... right at home bonding to the face of ceramic tile! ... there is no way to create a completely impermeable surface with this product due to the sand in it.
Sand... interesting, for some reason I hadn't expected that.

Quote:
but why make all that mess and break your back grinding the glaze off if you don’t have to?
Point definitely taken!

Quote:
we just (and I mean just) released a new product called Primer X, which is like Eco Prim Grip on steroids.
Even more interesting - guess you don't want to lean on that wall after coating it
Any idea on its distribution timeline?
Our local go-to tile place (Floor & Decor) pretty much only carries MAPEI stuff. I have not looked yet for Eco Prim Grip but I presume they would be picking Primer X up as well.
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Unread 10-23-2019, 01:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by man-o-media
Even more interesting - guess you don't want to lean on that wall after coating it
Any idea on its distribution timeline?
Our local go-to tile place (Floor & Decor) pretty much only carries MAPEI stuff. I have not looked yet for Eco Prim Grip but I presume they would be picking Primer X up as well.
It is currently in distribution, but you're going to be hard-pressed to find it this early in the game. Eco Prim Grip is no slouch, so I would stick with that for this project. Tile over tile is its claim to fame, where X is really geared more for priming before self-levelers.
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Unread 10-24-2019, 01:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAPEI - Technical Service
Eco Prim Grip is no slouch, so I would stick with that for this project. Tile over tile is its claim to fame, where X is really geared more for priming before self-levelers.
Indeed, I was reading a bit more about it and that does seem to be the case.

OK, that's decided, now I just need to figure out which fixtures are going in this shower and lighting and

BTW, I know the quote tags but how do you include the member name with the quoted text?

Many thanks
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Unread 10-24-2019, 02:11 PM   #10
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Go to our FAQ or the Liberry and you'll find a brief tutorial on how to post and properly attribute quotes here, DP. Very simple once you see it.
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Unread 10-24-2019, 02:26 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CX
Very simple once you see it.
Indeed... I had actually looked around a bit but clearly did not delve far enough through the links to get to the FAQ

Thanks!
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