Brick Fireplace stone makeover

[gslenk]

Plan:
Granite on the horizontal surfaces (mantle-shelf and hearth, if I have those named correctly) and likely stone ledger (the rough ones) all vertical surfaces, or maybe tile vertical surfaces.

So far:
Wire wheel'd the mess out of the brick. That's as clean as it's gonna get. Clean enough?
Looks pretty flat, except for the brick mortar lines (they are concave). Skim coat to fill those, or just use LFT mortar for tile/ledger?

Brick replacement:
Seems like I find a loose one, knock it out, and loosen another one in the process, repeat... Do I need to remove all the extra brick mortar (risking more loose bricks) or can I use a thin bit of brick mortar to patch in new bricks?

How far into the fire box can I go? I'm assuming as far as the "non fire rated brick went" but we all know about assumptions Ideally, I'd like to cover all the red brick, and leave the tan fire bricks inside alone.

If I can't go that far, then I'm probably looking at some sort of insert, and will need to rethink my strategy here. Or make the bricks/replacement as pretty as possible, paint it, and just do granite hearth/mantle.

Anything else I need to look into from these photos?

[Carbidetooth]

Lenny, is this strictly a looks thing or is the fireplace going to be used to augment heating the space?

Polished 3cm granite would not be a great choice for near the firebox. Any tile or stone with a scrim backing wouldn't be either.

[Davy]

If you can get the bricks to fit back in place, a thin layer of thinset mortar would glue them down.

[gslenk]

Didn't think about the scrim backing. Good point.

Would having the granite fabricator grind off the scrim backing a bit on the granite allow the granite to go in as far as planned? Or is that still a no-go?

The fireplace will likely *sometimes* be used. Not a regular source of heat since it is traditional construction, therefore highly inefficient.

Davy, are you implying I do not need to completely remove/replace the remaining brick mortar if it is secure, just thinset to glue the replacement brick to existing mortar? Then use brick mortar where mortar has been completely removed, when setting bricks?

Short of getting some type of insert, any other approaches/options?

Would something like this work?
Tile front/outside faces only (still with a ledger stone with backing scrim material)
Only run granite to the outside edge of the firebox
Install steel plate to cover the remaining brick (likely high temp powder coat etc black)
Install steel "ramp" (similarly to above) to transition firebox to granite height.

[ss3964spd]

I covered our brick fireplace facade and hearth probably 12 year ago, Lenny. Almost identical to yours, except the brick went to the ceiling, and the brick was much lumpier than yours. We use our fireplace so we did install a fireplace door.

I had to remove a section of bricks in order to install an electrical box and conduit, above what would be the mantel, and reinstalled the same bricks using mortar. Then spent time chipping off the protruding lumps and bumps and skimmed the whole thing with thinset mortar, filling the mortar joints.

We used natural slate to cover the brick, and turned the slate into the fire box enough to cover the brick but not the fire-brick. Those left and right corners are covered by the fireplace door frame. We used the same slate on the face of the hearth.

We used a soapstone slab for the top of the hearth, which had no backing on it. We did not extend the SS into the firebox at all, the back edge of the SS is covered by the door frame.

[gslenk]

Dan,

It was floor to ceiling brick, with a mantel. I removed everything above the mantel in favor if drywall. So your brick was built out by "two halves" just as mine on the sides? And you wrapped tile into the fireplace covering that portion of "two half bricks", (the green, and later gray, portions in my photos)?

I would do slate, but the floor will be slate (separate project). So if I like the look, I might just continue the floor tile (in a different size) up the fascia, similar to how you describe.

I assume the door/frame was mounted over or "on top of" the opening (rather than inside/flush)? What that before or after tile? I'm not quite understanding the reasoning behind wrapping tile inside, if doors were installed, unless it would have been easy to see the brick inside, and that was not desired.

Do you happen to have a build thread, or would you be willing to share some photos of the end result, for some inspiration?

[ss3964spd]

Actually, Lenny, the entire wall where the fireplace is was floor to ceiling brick. The center section, the width of the hearth, got clad with slate, and the rest, left and right, got covered with floor to ceiling "built-in's".

Yes, the door frame is an overlay type. I decided to wrap the slate into the opening because at the time I wasn't sure exactly what the door type would be. At the end we decided to have a custom door made. The opening is a wonky size, and the top of the opening is arched, protruding brick (which I left and cut the slate to fit around it) and I just couldn't find an off-the-shelf door to fit.

Ours was built a little different than yours. In the area around the FP there is the brick, with cement blocks behind it. Left and right of the FP it is two bricks deep. So the left and right on the inside of the opening it is only 1 brick deep so the wrapped slate is only about 4" into the FP.

I did start a new thread when I did that job, but it wasn't terribly detailed. Below are a few photos. In the first you can just make out the electrical box and the area of brick I removed and reinstalled. That pic shows the original doors still installed and was taken after all the new drywall was installed. The fireplace project was just a small part of the entire family room renovation.

[ss3964spd]

Forgot this one. Everything was finished except the doors.

[Davy]

Lenny, yes, that's what I meant. If the old mud is solid, you can stick the brick with a thin coat of thinset. If it seems loose, remove it and use new brick mortar.

[gslenk]

Davy, gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

Dan, thanks for the photos. I do recall finding those in my search a while back.

I see what you mean by wrapping the slate tile in. Very similar indeed (pretty much exact on the hearth). The brick wall seems to extend the firebox by one (sideways/half) layer of bricks. Mine extends by twice as much (two half bricks). I'm thinking this may create a more significant "heat box extension" if you will. Had that been your configuration, would you have been comfortable running the slate in the same manner, up to the firebricks?

I need to do some more research on doors, I'm having second thoughts. They seem to not provide any efficiency benefit, and I like the open look better.

So far, it seems like I've got two options narrowed down, do these sound right?
1) For ledger/stacked stone with mesh backing:
-Only install on out outside faces
-Continue to hide bricks with steel or other fire compatible material
-*Maybe* get away with wrapping ledger stone a few (1 or 2") into/towards the firebox, to give a more convincing look that it is not a veneer/cover (use steel to cover the remainder of brick)? Or just abandon that idea entirely?

2) For "usual" tile/stone tiles and thinset:
-Wrap into the firebox, but only over the non-fire bricks.

Could I get away some of the hearth granite extending an inch or two towards the inside of the firebox (using a steel "ramp" to hide the rest of the brick)? To match the proposed ledger/mesh stone creeping in. Or also abandon that idea as well?

I have a lot of time to think/plan, since it gonna take me forever to finish tiling the rest of my basement floor first

[ss3964spd]

Had I been working with the same side configuration as yours I would have still done it the same way.

I believe (or want to believe) the glass doors do add some measure of energy efficiency benefit. Even with the cable operated chimney cap closed, when I open the doors the temperature difference between the room side and the firebox is obvious. They also add some flexibility with controlling the heat output. Being able to close them once most of the wood has burned down, but hot coals remain, also provides some level of safety. Ours has both screen doors and bi-fold glass doors.

1) If the mesh backing is a concern you could always remove the stones from the mesh when you do the sides of the firebox.

2) Yup

I don't think extending the slab into the firebox would be an issue. But I don't think you need a ramp. If you just want to hide the brick you could just lay a piece or two of flat iron on top of the brick.

[cx]

Originally Posted by Lenny

I need to do some more research on doors, I'm having second thoughts. They seem to not provide any efficiency benefit...

Yes, more research, Lenny. I think it's been pretty well established that the glass doors make the fireplace more efficient when in use. 'Course it's not difficult to improve upon an efficiency of ten percent or less, eh?

And they also improve the energy efficiency when not in use by blocking the hole in your house during both heating and cooling seasons.

Cost/benefit ratio? Probably not particularly high, but permanently blocking the opening with insulating material is usually not an option for folks who have a fireplace, eh?

My opinion; worth price charged.

[smifwal]

Doors also allow you to burn woods that crackle and pop.

[gslenk]

Let's back up a little shall we?

Suppose I want to keep the brick look, or at least keep that option available. Questions in bold

If I find any more loose stuff, what's the most delicate removal? Pull by hand, chisel and hammer (no power hammer), oscillating tool and "grout cutter" attachment, prybar?

Blue/white circled areas:
I lucked out and found 3 whole bricks that must have survived from the demo, since they have the same dimension and white-wash coating. Albeit, dirty... sitting outside, have some greenish growth (see photo of one placed on the fireplace). Wirewheel, water, and dry good enough? Would bleach discolor them, use vinegar instead, or is that unnecessary?

Red circled corners:
I'd like solid bricks (likely need to be cut to size on a tile saw...) in the bottom corners (so no exposed "brick holes" or whatever they are called). I'll make it an intentional accent/mismatch of a different color. Anyway, can solid/smooth bricks be mortared in place or do they need some type of hole for structural integrity? If so, just cut drill some holes in partially, leaving a smooth exposed surfaces?

Color matching the existing mortar???
-On a previous tip, I discovered I can use thinset over the existing/sound mortar, and brick mortar where loose mortar was removed.
-I'd need to color match both.
-Could I add some laticrete permagrout colorant to the water mix, in whatever might closest match? Experimenting mixing that with brick mortar and thinset (separately to get a match for each) so I have the right color pookey for each situation.
-Though thinset comes in gray or white, I'm assuming big box brick mortar comes in some ugly brownish tinted color? Any leads on what to look for here? Never laid bricks before...
-Any other ideas on how to tackle the mortar matching?

MAYBE...?
If I luck out and find a perfect color/texture match grout...
Set the bricks in whatever brick mortar, leave out enough room for grout. (Any chance I can use spare schluter All Set from my bathroom project? Remember, 1/2" gaps...)
Grout the gaps
Done deal!

[gslenk]

Mapei charcoal seems to be a dead on match, from their plastic color sticks. What’s the coarsest grout they offer? Ultracolor FA means fine aggregate, so maybe that’s not the best idea? But it can do 3/4” grout lines. So leave a nice 1/4 to 1/2” depth when setting the bricks?