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Unread 12-01-2021, 11:50 AM   #31
JayTee
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Thought I would share a progress photo.

Plumbing complete (relocated toilet drain which is under ACX underlayment)
Walls primed, ceiling painted
ACX underlayment set (screwed 4" perimeter, 6" field).
Self leveling under shower pan complete

Now the scary part of installing the Laticrete presloped pan and hydroban boards. As you can see, I had to the plane a few studs to get the walls flat. I will probably have to wet shim the walls as the corners are off.

Thanks for all the help so far. I'm sure you will be hearing from me shortly.
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Unread 12-02-2021, 02:20 PM   #32
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According to what I have read (including some of the suppliers data sheets) I should use a chaulk, instead of grout, anywhere the tile plane changes direction.

I would assume this includes the vertical wall corners inside the shower including the permiter around the tiled shower floor. This would also include 2 lines along the edges of the curb and the base of the curb on the outside of the shower.

Does this sound correct?

Thanks.
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Unread 12-02-2021, 03:44 PM   #33
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All correct except for the generic term, caulk. What you are actually supposed to use at those movement accommodation joints is another generic term, flexible sealant. That would be a material meeting the requirements of ASTM C920 and the smaller your joint, the higher Class you'd want, meaning the flexibility of the material is such that it can accommodate movement of a higher percentage of the width of the joint.

The most commonly recommended materials for use in wet areas such as your shower would be 100 percent silicone. These days, that material can be found in colors to match any grout and also in satin and sanded textures.

But you're correct in thinking you want something in the joints you described other than grout.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 12-02-2021, 07:19 PM   #34
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I purchased some Latasil which apparently meets those requirements and matches the color of my grout.

Does this flexible material last long or does it require touch up every few years?

Thanks.
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Unread 12-03-2021, 09:04 AM   #35
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I used the Latasil product for my master bath build, JT, two years in and it's holding up just fine.
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Unread 12-03-2021, 03:21 PM   #36
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Thanks.

This brings up a related issue. If I use Latasil around the permiter of my shower floor tile and then lap the wall tile over the floor tile, the latasil (around the perimeter of my floor tile) will not be accessible and therfore I could never fully repair or replace it.

I'm guessing that I'm not supposed to lap the wall (and curb) tile over the Latasil and that the wall and floor tile should create its own joint with the corners 1/8" apart.

Below are a couple diagrams.

Thanks again.
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Unread 12-03-2021, 03:29 PM   #37
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There is no need to put the sealant in the gap at the perimeter of your floor tiles at all, JT.

Technically, there is actually no technical need to put the sealant in the gap at the bottom of your wall tiles. It's there to close the gap for aesthetic purposes while still allowing for movement accommodation.

The correct way to install such a sealant is shown below. It is almost never actually done that way, but the point is that you wouldn't want to actually fill the gap in either of your examples. It's to bond to each side of the joint and allow the two planes to move independently without breaking the bond and, therefore, to keep the gap from filling with something much less desirable or attractive.

Name:  Caulking Bead.jpg
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My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 12-03-2021, 04:34 PM   #38
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Now Im thoroughly confused.

Most resources indicate that I need a flexible joint anywhere the tile plane changes direction. I would imagine that means the floor tile in the shower.

Are you saying I should grout everything?
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Unread 12-03-2021, 04:47 PM   #39
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I am not saying that at all. I'm saying that you already have a flexible joint there when the joint is completely open. And you shower would function just fine that way. But it wouldn't look so good. And those joints would gather all sorts of debris over time. That's why the industry recommends filling them while still maintaining the flexibility of the joint. The recommended filler is a flexible sealant. The most common recommendation among those is 100 percent silicone, and I think that's what you should use.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 12-03-2021, 07:04 PM   #40
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Thanks.

Understood.

In regard to the two diagrams, is there a correct way of having tile meet at 90 degrees? The same question comes up in regard to the shower wall corners.

How should I end the tiles at the corners and floor?

Thanks again.
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Unread 12-04-2021, 07:33 AM   #41
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JT, you'll want your tile to meet in the corners as shown in the first (top) drawing. Doing so provides enough surface, the edge of one tile and the top of the other, for the sealant to adhere to.

If the void is deep enough you can fill it with backer rod as shown in the photo cx posted.
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Unread 12-04-2021, 10:04 AM   #42
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Thanks.

Per the Woeste/Nielson article CX provided the link to, I left a 1/8" gap between underlayment panels and a 1/4" gap between the underlayment panels and any restricting structure. In my case restricitng structures would be walls and the shower curb.

If I use thinset to set either my stratamat or if I were to install my tile directly on the underlayment, those gaps (1/8" and 1/4") would be filled with thinset. At least the 1/8" one would. I imagine I could try not to fill the perimeter 1/4" gaps.

If the gaps become filled with thinset, that would seem to defeat the purpose of putting the gaps there in the first place.

I ask this for two reasons. The first is the obvious one that I will fill those gaps when I tile my floor. The second is that I want to extend my waterproofing beyond my shower curb into the bathroom floor. In order to do this, I would need to fill/bridge the 1/4" gap between the curb and the underlayment. I would need to do this before tiling so my question is, what do I fill that gap with and is it OK to fill that gap?

Thanks again.
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Unread 12-04-2021, 10:37 AM   #43
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While certainly not intuitive, JT, the most common method of treating those subfloor gaps is to pretend you don't see them.

While I have heard some discussion and seen some manufacturers address the issue, I've never seen anything consistent in the industry. While it seems counter-intuitive to allow the gaps to be filled with thinset mortar when installing a tiling substrate, or, as you suggested, even bonding tile directly to the second layer of plywood as an underlayment, to allow the gaps to be filled with mortar after you were very careful to follow the plywood manufacturer's instructions to leave an appropriate gap, that's what's usually done.

What's the tile industry thinking on that? Appears that while the plywood manufacturers, and the tile industry, want those gaps to allow for expansion of the plywood panels with changes in moisture levels, that mostly happens before the plywood is in conditioned space, such as with the second layer in most applications. The top layer will certainly experience a substantial wetting when thinset mortar is bonded to it, but is that enough of a temporary condition to cause any problem when the gaps are partially filled with mortar? I dunno, but apparently it's not been enough of a problem to cause distress among the industry technical committees. Discussion? Yes. Distress? No.

I have seen some substrate manufacturers call for the use of a flexible sealant in those joints, or the use of a bond-breaker tape over the joints, but never consistently, even from the same product manufacturer.

Should you decide to use such methods in your particular application, I don't think anyone would fault you for it, but if you elect to do nothing at all about the joints, not likely anyone will fault you for that, either.

I'm sure that provides you much clarity and a warm, fuzzy feeling, yes?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 12-04-2021, 12:03 PM   #44
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Thanks!

Actually I prefer answers like that as it boils down to....you have enough to worry about regarding this remodel, dont worry about the joints in the underlayment.

Thanks again.
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Unread 12-07-2021, 12:12 PM   #45
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I'm getting ready to set my tile floor and shower walls and am finalizing my layout plans. The floor is 6'1-3/8" wide and 7'5" long. I am using 12X24 tiles (actual 23-11/6 X 11-11/16) with a 1/8” grout line on a 33% offset. I will need to have about 7” wide tiles against both side walls.

I am planning on orientating the tiles lengthwise toward the shower along the 7’5” floor length. I will align the grout lines with the face, top and back side grout lines of the curb.

Here are my questions:

1) This question is more opinion than anything else. I will use the same tile for the shower wall but the tiles will be horizontal on the walls which is perpendicular to the floor layout. The grout color is a close match to the tile color. Is that a bad look or is it OK?

2) Instead of having a grout line every 12” on the sides and top of curb, I can cut the tiles lengthwise and have grout lines every 24”. The will mean every other grout line on the curb will not have an associated grout line on the floor. Again, this is an opinion question as I don’t think it matters technically. Just wondering if this done or not and what you may think.

3) This question is technical. I did my best to flatten the floor and walls. The floor is flat. Two of the 3 shower walls are flat but one small wall, even after some wet shimming is a bit off. One stud is about 1/8” out on a 44” wide by 53” high wall. The stud is about ¾'s across the wall. I know I can deal with this on a 33% offset but what are your thoughts if I want to go with a 50% offset. I am using a 1/2 X 12" half circle trowel. The 50% offset was my original plan but after reading about the added difficulty of 50% offset I got scared away but am now wondering if that was warranted. I prefer the 50% offset look much better.

Thanks!
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