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Unread 10-21-2021, 07:37 AM   #31
Chowchewey
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Tile layout

I have read many Q & As on tile layouts, but this one I have not seen so I hope you will share your views.

In my 60" x 36" shower, on the 60" wall we plan to install a 13" wide vertical "waterfall" run of ~ 2x2" mosiac porcelain tile. The rest of the wall tile will be 12 x 24 porcelain. I cannot locate anywhere how much offset the manufacturer recommends.

After laying the mosiacs, I'll have ~24" on either side which means I will have just enough room to lay 1 full tile - a soldier course. Is a soldier course considered 0% offset and if so would this look right or cause issues? We are waiting on the tile so cannot see how flat they are. Here is a link to the tile.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/MSI-Aspe...1224/303074802

On the 2 36" walls, if I used a 30% offset this would create slivers on every third row (assuming my math is correct!). A brick pattern would be ideal from an installation and waste perspective but don't want lippage issues either. Any suggestions? Any experience with MSI tile? Thanks as always for the help.
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Unread 10-21-2021, 11:04 AM   #32
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What I found very helpful when doing my shower layout was to take a roll of the brown craft paper. Unroll a piece larger than the full dimensions of the walls I was tiling and then measure my walls at each corner, niches, window etc. I then marked them all on the paper. I also measured the center point where I thought I wanted to start my layout and marked that as well.

Doing this allowed me to lay my wall tiles down and spacers down and test out different offsets and starting points to avoid slivers and all.
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Unread 10-26-2021, 08:12 AM   #33
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Drain and sheet membrane

Going back to the drain and using Hydroban sheet membrane for the floor. Laticrete recommends using thinset to adhere the membrane to the drain (around the hole). My concern with this is the potential for moisture wicking underneath the membrane (via thinset) in this critical area. Laticrete offered no solution when pressed for alternatives. Thoughts on using silicone or other material in this area?

CX - I really like your idea to do the floor almost last in the process. However, Laticrete recommends installing their membrane in a sort of bottom up process. That is corners first, then changes in plane, then walls, then floor. Any ideas how I can install the floor almost last and still follow the manufacturers recommendations? I've been racking my head around this for a few days and can't come up with a solution.

Thanks as always for the help.
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Unread 10-26-2021, 08:36 AM   #34
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I hafta give you the same response for the receptor that I'd give you for the bonding flange drain; the overlapping seams must be waterproof or the material/system could not qualify for ICC approval for use in shower systems, which I think Laticrete's membrane does.

I've seen where Laticrete recommends "shingling" their membrane on shower walls, but don't understand why. You cannot shingle a vertical seam. You cannot shingle the receptor portion where it's necessary for the receptor to contain water when filled to the top of the curb. You obviously cannot shingle in every direction in a three-plane corner.

The requirement makes no sense to me. You might wanna call Laticrete and see if you can determine the thinking there, and please do come back and tell me where my thinking is wrong on the matter.

Were I to use laticrete's membrane for a shower, I'd do it the same way I've done Kerdi showers and USG Durrock membrane showers, which is to complete, including tile, the ceiling and walls except for the bottom row of tile before even installing the bonding flange drain. And I'd bond the floor membrane to the bonding flange drain with thinset mortar as the manufacturer instructs.

You can certainly try to actually follow Laticrete's shingling instructions if you can see a way to do that, but the overlaps with that membrane are either waterproof or they're not. You cannot shingle a shower receptor.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 10-26-2021, 10:29 AM   #35
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CX, thanks for being a voice of logic and reasoning. I believe this forum is read by a Laticrete rep, perhaps they will chime in and answer the questions posed about shingling. If not I will call them and will report back.

I forgot to ask this last time, but do you have recommendations on which thinset to use to bond the membrane to the cbu? I believe Laticrete recommends their 254 thinset, but that's $1 a pound and an hour drive for me. I have access to Custom and Mapei products very readily. I'm not certain how much thinset it will take to membrane a 5' x3' shower enclosure so would also like to use any thinset leftover for the tile install
if possible (porcelain, 12" x 24" possibly). The number of thinset products out there is dizzying. Appreciate the help.
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Unread 10-26-2021, 12:45 PM   #36
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FWIW, Art, I used the aforementioned Durock membrane and drain system on my shower floor, Durock foam panels on the walls, and the whole mess together with their preformed corners and band for my master bath shower. The membrane covers the drain flange, ends just shy of the opening, and is installed with thinset mortar. I flood tested it for two days. The shower was put into service over two years ago.

Also FWIW, I used Customs' Versabond for all of the membrane installation; seams, corners, and the shower floor, as well as for the Ditra Heat matt installed on the main bathroom floor over Hardibacker. And oh, Versabond to install all the 12X24 tile. Almost forget, Versabond to install the foam shower pan. I think you get the picture.
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Unread 10-26-2021, 01:09 PM   #37
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Where I live, Art, unless you're willing to drive 40 miles one way, your choices for brands of thinset mortar are Custom Building Products or Custom Building products which are sold in the place of orange aprons. I tend to use VersaBond for most any tile project. It's not that I'm somehow loyal to the Custom brand, it's because that's what's easiest for me to get.

Actually, now there is now a Lowe's store only 30 miles or less from me, but it seems you never know what brands or products you'll actually find there, so I tend still to shop at homer's for such products.

And, in my experience, the VersaBond works well with the sheet-type waterproofing membranes, including Kerdi. Schluter is aware of that. And VersaBond is reasonably priced. Schluter knows that, too.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Last edited by cx; 12-06-2021 at 03:47 PM. Reason: Typo
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Unread 11-05-2021, 07:15 AM   #38
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Laticrete response / layout

I contacted Laticrete about the question does it matter which order their sheet membrane products are installed and the response I got back was in terms of waterproofness (?) the order of installation is not important. The important key is to maintain a 2" overlap at all product seams. I didn't get into why they even list an order of installation. Mystery solved (mostly).


I also have a tile layout question. My interior shower dimensions are approx 60" x 36". I am using a 12 x 24" tile and a stacked bond pattern. On the 2 end walls the tile will extend beyond the shower area and the tiled end walls will be 42".


My question is on the end walls should the center grout line be the center of the interior shower dimension (36") or the center of the tiled wall (42")? I know it maybe a matter of aesthetics, but what is commonly done in these situations? If I use the center of the shower interior, one tile will be 18" and the other 24" to equal 42" and the grout line will line up with the water controls. If I use half of 42" each tile will be equal but will not line up with the plumbing. Like I said, what is the most common way to handle this?

Thank you very much for your help.
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Unread 11-06-2021, 07:42 AM   #39
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I'd probably go for the grout line lining up with the controls, Art.
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Unread 11-30-2021, 08:51 AM   #40
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Progress!!

So yesterday I mudded the preslope. What a workout! Mixed 250# of drypack by hand and hauled to the shower on the 2nd floor. You pros must have forearms like Popeye and knees of titanium!! Or your helpers do!

Anyway, I let it set overnight with plastic over it and will maybe do a plastic test on it. But the main project today will be to mud the curb.

Looking farther ahead and have some questions of course:
1) For the bathroom floor I plan to forego the CBU and instead use a crack isolation membrane to save on floor height. Any recommendations on which products to use? I see they are rather pricey!!
2) In the shower I used a 1/8" grout joint. For the bathroom floor using 12 x 24" tile, I was thinking of maybe going with a 1/4" joint. Is there any reason this is advisable from a durability aspect? Or can I stick with 1/8"?
3) On the shower floor I am using 2x2" tile on sheets. Won't the slope of the floor impact the tile spacing? That is, how do you maintain a consistent grout joint with a sloping floor?
4) Waterproofing the curb - I am using the Laticrete sheet membrane. The curb is approx 47" long. My question is would you wrap the curb in one piece or do seperate (2 side pieces and 1 top and seaming the 90 deg corners)? Not sure how pliable the sheet is to make 2 90 deg angles. Thoughts and experiences?

Thank you very much for your time and information!
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Unread 11-30-2021, 09:27 AM   #41
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1. Dealer's choice. My first pick would be one from the Noble Company. Yes, they're all a bit spendy. And to save 3/16ths of an inch in floor height?

2. Once you've satisfied the industry recommendation of a joint three times the difference in tile size, or met the manufacturer's recommendation of minimum grout joint width, anything greater is an aesthetic consideration.

3. Unless you've created a pretty extreme slope, you should have no trouble at all maintaining a consistent grout joint and minimal lippage using the 2x2" tiles.

4. I've never worked with the Laticrete sheet membrane, but whatever membrane I used I'd want to be a single piece over the entire curb if possible.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 11-30-2021, 03:36 PM   #42
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Thanks CX for the response. In terms of the questions raised....

1) I'm married so I have seen money spent on less worthwhile things than crack membrane but I see your point. I'll have to ponder on that some more.
2) I guess I don't understand the industry calculation for grout size. 3x the difference in tile size? I don't understand that and I haven't yet purchased the tile to know what the manufacturer recommends.
4) Its not a bad membrane to work with - lays flat for the most part. The worst part is they print all kinds of stuff on it in black ink (logo, etc) so by the time you're done working your hands are all black.

Thanks as always for the info.
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Unread 12-01-2021, 08:21 AM   #43
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Flood test

Looking at drain plugs for the flood test and was looking at this one keeping in mind this will be a one time use. Acceptable? I've seen the inflatables but they are $30+ and don't want to spend that much.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Oatey-PVC-T...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

Thanks.
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Last edited by cx; 12-03-2021 at 08:43 AM. Reason: Repair link
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Unread 12-03-2021, 08:41 AM   #44
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Regarding the grout joint size, Art, 3X the difference. IWO, measure a sampling of your tile, several from different boxes. If the difference between the smallest tile and the largest is, say, 1/16" then the recommended grout joint width would be 3/16". The 12X24 inch tiles I used on my shower walls were very consistent in size so I used a 1/16" joint.

The plug; if the drain assembly does not have weep holes then that plug you're considering will work to check that the drain assembly to membrane joint isn't leaking. However, IMO I'd still want to use the inflatable plug so that I could position it below the joint when the drain assembly is glued to the vertical riser, thus enabling you to verify that joint is leak free.
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Unread 12-04-2021, 09:02 AM   #45
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Flood test and floor

Thanks for the response Dan. When I get the tile I will check it out. Used a Laticrete drain with no weeps.

Flood test is today. Thanks to all of you that helped me get to this point!!

Moving on to the floor.....as noted in previous posts the floor is constructed of I-beams of sort - 2x4 top and bottoms with metal webbing inbetween 24" OC with 14' span. Deflecto can't calculate the deflection of this floor but in previous posts CX and I concluded an additional layer of ply was needed. So I am in the process of laying 19/32" BCX ply over the 3/4" OSB. Given I am venturing into an unknown land without the benefit of deflecto I am concerned about deflection and floor height and having a failed floor down the road. As I understand it my options to finish the floor are:
1) lay 1/4" CBU (thinset, taped, and screwed) and then tile. Pros - cost effective - Con - raises floor height (room butts to carpet)
2) lay a crack isolation membrane over the ply and tile. Pro - minimal floor height gain - Con - expensive - $9 a ln ft.
3) Not sure if this an option - using a uncompling membrane over the ply. I haven't fully researched these products but would they fall somewhere between options 1 & 2? That is, minimal height gain and not quite as expensive as the crack membrane?

Thoughts? Thank you for your time.
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