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Unread 04-08-2021, 10:43 AM   #31
frantznewb
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If the bed height at the pan wall is already at or above the required height but a flat area interrupts the proper slope, should I slope down from higher on the wall or try to chisel out the flat areas to to adhere to the 1/4 per foot slope?
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Unread 04-08-2021, 05:30 PM   #32
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Shane, the way to achieve the proper slope is to calculate the necessary rise by measuring from the drain to the farthest corner of the shower and doing your calculation from that measurement. You then make a mark on the wall at that height and carry that level mark all around the shower perimeter. That's the only measurement you need. And you want to make that a minimum of 1/4" per foot slope and you want to make the slope flat to the drain. You do not need nor want to be trying to put a level on the surface of the sloped bed as it will tell you nothing of value. Carve a flat slope from drain to level perimeter line all around using whatever verity of straight-edges makes it easy. Done.

Easiest repair is likely to simply remove what you've got and give it another try. Material is dirt cheap and DIY labor is free, eh?

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-10-2021, 08:40 AM   #33
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Unhappy

What is the best way to evaluate whether to tear out and redo the preslope?

The farthest corner is 5 ft from the drain = 1.25 rise. The drain hole edge is about 1 ft. from the nearest wall. Is 1.25" rise over 1ft ok?

I was planning to use the quick pitch sticks for the top bed. But if I do that. the perimeter will be sloped because the walls are aren't equidistant from drain (varying levels of rise) The bottom course of tiles will have to match that sloped angle which = more tile cutting. I can see that being a headache.
Is a non-level perimeter bad for other reasons?



Two rise approaches and outcomes:

1) preslope: level perimeter, with varying rise ( = or greater than .25 per ft.), steep rise at close walls

2) top bed using quick pitch .25 rise per ft throughout, non level
perimeter
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Unread 04-10-2021, 09:38 AM   #34
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Shane, the location of your drain and the shape of your shower footprint is problematic. Were it mine, and were I to treat the entire area as shower floor, I think I would divide the slope into two parts. First I'd slope the portion from the entry (I think) to the squared-off section at 1/4" per foot. Then I would slope from the height of the low end of that slope to the drain with a level perimeter at the low point of the initial slope.

That would require cutting the bottom row of wall tiles to match the slope of the initial portion of the floor, but the rest would be level perimeter. Not at all a difficult thing to do and if your tiles are fairly large, not even noticeable.

But that's a difficult thing to pull off using a traditional receptor construction and I'd recommend you switch to a direct bonded waterproofing method for the entire shower.

And no matter what else you do, I would recommend you divest yourself of those plastic divider strips. While they might be of some value for someone building the pre-slope of a shower with a circular footprint, they are of no value at all in your application and have the significant disadvantage of scribing dividing lines in your top mud bed to show your floor where to crack.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-10-2021, 12:27 PM   #35
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I was thinking of using two areas as an option as well.

Would a traditional receptor be difficult because of the angle change at the border(pvc bunching) between the 2 areas, or??

Also, will I need to build a temporary form for the shared side between the 2 areas to butt up against? Then once the 2 areas fully cure, remove the form and backfill its linear void?
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Unread 04-10-2021, 12:55 PM   #36
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I found a Laticrete bonded flange installation video that shows the procedure using liquid applied membrane (no sheet) so I'll go with that.
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Unread 04-13-2021, 08:30 AM   #37
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Please do tell, why would a traditional receptor be difficult to pull off if the footprint was ÷ into 2 areas with different perimeter heights?

There is an undersloped area in the drain area and I am considering, raising
it to reestablish a new perimeter height 1/2-1" to slope from. The plan would be to use a thinset slurry to bond the bed mud. and would taper to preexisting bed. Is this a bad idea because of the thinness in the tapered areas?

When doing direct bond type bed, is the mortar used different than for traditional receptor i.e non- porous?
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Last edited by frantznewb; 04-13-2021 at 08:36 AM.
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Unread 04-13-2021, 08:39 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frantznewb View Post
Please do tell, why would a traditional receptor be difficult to pull off if the footprint was ÷ into 2 areas with different perimeter heights?

There is an undersloped area about a foot out from the drain towards the large rectangular area and I am considering, raising
it to reestablish a new perimeter height 1/2-1" to slope from. The plan would be to use a thinset slurry to bond the bed mud. and would taper to preexisting bed. Is this a bad idea because of the thinness in the tapered areas?

When doing direct bond type bed, is the mortar used different than for traditional receptor i.e non- porous?
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Unread 04-13-2021, 04:16 PM   #39
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Adding a new mud bed to an existing mud bed creates what is known as a "cold joint". Basically two separate mud beds. Bonding the edges with a thinset mortar slurry might do the trick.

Ideally you want the entire perimeter to be at the same height, so that the bottom edge of your bottom row of tile is also at the same height.

The mix for the pre slope (bottom) mud bed is generally the same as that used for the top, but there's no technical reason that I know of for the bottom to be porous like the top. The advantage of the 5:1 mix is the relative ease of shaping it.
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Unread 04-14-2021, 07:37 AM   #40
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Thanks for the info! If I did a repair of the preslope then proceeded with the top bed, I think the overall bed height would be too high...

So my options, as I see it are:

1) repair the existing bed slope doing a cold joint.
This means replacing the clamp type drain with
a laticrete bonded flange drain. Apply Hydro ban liquid membrane for all waterproofing.

2) tear out the preslope bed and do either a traditional 2 bed receptor build or a single bed direct bonded install.

For a single level screed, because the footprint is long and the drain is on the far end, there would have to be a 1.25" rise over a distance of 14". I have seen in other posts here that this is an acceptable amount, which is encouraging.

If that's too much rise, then there would be 2 screed levels which is what CX and I were discussing. The suggestion was made to switch to direct bonded because traditional receptor with this setup would be tough though I don't know why that is as of yet.
I have all materials needed including the pvc liner, so I was planning to go trad., but the preslope needed repair and also needs some sloping work and I have gotten into a dilemma on how to best proceed aka "analysis paralysis".

At the end of the day, want it to be a be as straight forward as possible because I'm a newbie DIYer(no experience, with mortar, bed construction or tiling).
and it doesn't have to be pretty, just watertight. As it turns out the shower project I inherited is not beginner grade so I am pretty challenged by all this.
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Unread 04-14-2021, 07:54 AM   #41
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Shane, offer us a quick and dirty birds eye view drawing of the shower foot print, its measurements, and note where the drain is and where the shower head(s) is.
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Unread 04-14-2021, 08:26 AM   #42
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Shane, if you'll take a piece of that 40mil PVC waterproofing membrane, bend up a 12" section to make a 90 degree angle, then lay it on your floor and try to bend the horizontal portion down over your change in pre-slope pitch, I think you'll see the problem. With the slight pitch change you've got you might be able to stretch the vertical portion enough to make the change, but I wouldn't count on it 'till I had tried it.

Can't say for sure it won't work, but can't say for sure it will, either.

The direct bonded waterproofing membrane can be cut and patched sufficiently to make that work. Can't say the same for the traditional liner. And that's one application where the liquid-applied membranes might have the advantage, but you hafta be soooo very careful with them when making a shower receptor. I would not advised using one that didn't come with a reinforcing fabric to use, preferably on the entire receptor area.

I would not recommend trying to patch up an improperly made sloped mud bed in that application. Too easy and inexpensive to simply remove what you've got and re-build what you need.

My opinion; worth price charged.
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Unread 04-14-2021, 10:17 AM   #43
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Thanks everyone! Ive attached a basic layout w/measurements I have handy (not there presently). Width is about 3' on one end and 4' on the other. Overall length is around 5.5 ft.

If I do a tear out, preference would be direct bond as it's only a single bed and less weight on floor. I found a Laticrete flange drain video that shows how to do this but no fabric is involved. I know they have fabric membranes but don't know what the procedure is if I used it with their drain. Also, wouldn't using that create the same issue as using a pvc liner given footprint- or is it only an issue if working with 2 screed levels dividing footprint into 2 areas? I was thinking all liquid. Video shows 2 coats to floor. I have one of those credit card depth guages. Is it harmful to apply extra coats to the floor to thicken it up beyond what's specified, to make it extra tough?
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Unread 04-14-2021, 11:06 AM   #44
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Shane, given the layout, especially the location of the shower head, IMO you do not need to slope the entire floor.

In the picture below I'd start my slope at either the red line, or maybe 6 to 12 inches back from that at the blue line, and leave the rest of the black lined section flat.

As I see it, during a shower you're not going to get enough water on the flat part to be an issue.

Remove the existing pre-slope bed, all of it. Install a single slope mud bed in the "shower area" section and the mud bed in the flat section at the same time. Cover with the membrane of your choice, and use a corresponding drain.
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Unread 04-15-2021, 10:59 AM   #45
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Thanks guys, very helpful! So I plan to do the tear out and replace the drain with Laiticrete's direct bond flange drain and to use their sheet membrane. Sigh, still more materials to buy...
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