Commercial Tile Installation

[RedRock]

I have an opportunity to bid on a commercial project (hotel) and was hoping for some advice on bidding and what to expect for performing the work. There is about 60 units, foyer/common area, swimming pool deck and walls, and worker areas.

Tile will supplied by GC. Design/specs from architect. I provide the rest. All floors are concrete/gypcrete.

Should this be a square footage bid and how should price points compare to residential installations?

Can/should recommendations above specifications be included? ie using Ditra on floors, control joints, waterproof membranes, etc.

Should a duration (time) estimate be included?

Are bonding/insurance cost included in the overall bid or as a separate line item?

Should bid separate installation and materials or just lump it all together?

Anything else to consider?

[Scottish Tile and Stone]

You might want to get with todd on this one. You can get in way to deep real quick on commercial work.. You dont finish when your supposed to , could cost you lots of cash.

[thuffner3]

Morning Juan,
I do a lot of commercial tile here in Cincinnati.

Gypcrete issues, Gyppcrete must be sealed prior to installing anything ontop of it. G.C. most times will put the responsibility on the guy who will be installing the final material, tile vinyl, VCT, carpet, etc. The question should be brought up.
Many times if the G.C. applies the sealer it is not up to spec. You can tell this by the amount of powder that can readily be brought up by broom or trowel.

If the G.C. has done a piss poor job of installing the sealer, a customs tech guy told me that Red Gard could be deluted 2 to 1 with water and applied with a roller. Bear in mind that you have to get the floor absolutely clean before you can do this though.

Scheduling can be a real bear, especially if the contractor tells you that certain materials are available for you to install only to find out that there not onsite. this point is quite common.
Work with each sub on the project to see where and when they are going to complete their respective aspects of work. Many times a G.C. will know the job as a whole, but can't tell you squat about each individual aspect. The sub foremans tell G.C.'s exactly what they want to hear in those trailer meetings.

With 60 plus units, it sounds like your looking at 6 floors?? Is there a lift available, A zoom boom is nice but it will only reach effectively 4 floors, and can be quite precarrious.

Water! Waste water, can you dump it somewhere, our last major multi-unit building had us taking wastewater from the tenth floor down the elevator to street level to a field drain. During the whole project I bet my man had logged 300 hours just carrying wastewater.

The insurance and bonds are in your P&O. There is quite abit more.
But the one important thing I can't stress enough is to make sure that your G.C. is ready when he tells you he's ready or you'll find yourself running back and forth. Board and redgard in one unit tile second floor another unit.
grout one the first floor another adinfinitetum.

Bid units by units, bid bulk tile by the foot. (based on complication).
Take a good look at you averall bid add all the footages together, then give the G.C. a sqaure foot price. If your only in the bidding stages. The G.C.'s like the square foot price. More time than not though, a G.C. already has a square foot price that he has aquired from past installations for like work.
Be very careful at the negociating table, a few cents per foot on an overall bid will kill you.

Peace

[RedRock]

Thanks Neil, great points to consider.

The hotel is already under construction. Just a few weeks away from drywall. The GC told me the tile specs have changed so they are needing some new bids. He also said that all their original bids were from out of state crews, but they would like some local bids. I thinks its a long shot for me but what the hell.

The GC mentioned that they have a "budget" for the tile installation. Any suggestions on a square foot price that might be expected?

My rough calculations last night came up with 7700 sf. I'm definitely going to have to hire another crew.

Would providing specifics on the bid be beneficial? ie, use of control joints, type of underlayment, ANSI/TCA standards, etc.

Thanks again ........

[deepwater]

I bid on one of those and the GC told me he was custom to paying $2.00 s/f for floors and $3.00 - $3.50 a/f for walls and he provides all material. I laughed and told him I was not interested. I get $10.00-$15.00 for floors in residental so it was not worth the trouble to me.

[Davestone]

Juan, usually you get what's called a grid sheet with a timeline for when you are supposed to be there and be done.Also everything shoul;d be spec'd by an architect for underlayments,waterproofing and such, even the type of thinset is spec'd, you really need to get with him, even if he says whatever, ask for a blueprint.Also ask about insurance requirements, i would imagine the gc will want himself added to your policy, and your ins. co will want to know if you're doing commercial.He'll also need workers comp records, and the names of the people insured.Nowww,do a rundown of one unit, then check to see if they are all the same, if not you'll need to do different bids on the diferent models, gc's like this broken down as much as possible,my gc makes me brak everything down even backsplashes if he's buying the material, i just furnish setting materials and labor.Be sure to find out what your responsibilitis are so you can include them in your price, like insurance hikes, bonds,he may even require onsite supervisory,this should all be spelled out in the application to bid.

[RedRock]

Thanks Dave, I get a hunch that the GC that I spoke with at the site is the job superintendent. He loaned me a set of plans but there are no tile specifications other than a pattern for the bathroom floors and pool area walls. I guess a call to their headquarters and the architect is first on my list for Monday.

Deepwater, that's pretty good coin for floors. With the drop in new construction around here, all the subs are getting hungry. I got underbid on a residential and the other guy included travertine tile in his bid. I still have enough to keep me busy but I've had to diversify my services to keep up the cash flow. Hope this hotel is not expecting scab labor rates!

[Davestone]

I got you. There should be what's called a t-schedule on the plans, be sure you have the finish schedule plans, or the floor elevation plans.The floor plans should spell out c-schedule,for carpet, t-for tile,s- for stone and so forth.They must have a figured amount they are willing to spend for flooring,and my guess is they know how slow it is there, and figure they can get some local hungry guys to bid much cheaper than the outta towners, don't be surprised if you're not the only local bidding, they'll probably get at least three...they all do, even when a builder tells me i'm the only one bidding i don't believe them.One problem is most builders won't inspect your bid closely,and don't compare apples to apples, in other words if you're planning on using high dollar underlayments and thinset and are a little higher in your bid,they will not even consider the better job, just the bottom dollar amount, also, but being in first with your bid counts a lot, they want someone on the ball, and eager, so just work up a bid with your price per model, and how you're gonna do it, and a disclaimer about future changes or ins. requirements,and see what happens, but be advised it is a slippery slope. But a pool deck is by far the scariest of any commercial tile jobs,they can be disastrous, so be careful there.

[stullis]

"out of state crews" means low price around here. You'll be bidding against guys who will stick the tile directly to gypcrete and mastic on greenboard tub/shower surrounds.

If you plan on doing it "right", I wouldn't waste your time. Even the "luxury hotels" are mostly whores doing the work, like at the hotel in SC. It looked nice but I could see where they had cut corners and whored it in.

[RedRock]

Then if I don't get the first bid, maybe I'll get the repair - for double the price. Somewhere around here I saw some pictures of a college dorm that was hacked in and failed the first semester. It was done the right way using Schluter products.

Well, wish me luck boys. Thanks again for the advise.

[Jeremy]

Deepwater, what does your rate of 10 to 15 dollars per foot include?

[deepwater]

That includes labor and setting material ....no tile

Thinset, B-board, and grout. They run me about .80 cent per foot.

My pricing starts at $10.00 s/f to lay tile over concrete. I work up to $15.00 s/f for stone over b-board w pattern.

I tend to stick to $15.00 for shower walls not matter what the material is

[stullis]

That's a pretty big maybe but you never know it might pay off.

Spell out exactly what techniques you intend to do and if at all possible get to the architect because the GC usually isn't interested anything but bottomline price unless they are being pressured by the architect.

Good luck

[flatfloor]

There has to be a written spec and he has one in his office. Insist on seeing it.Make copies of the sections that apply to your work.

[stullis]

Most written specs in commercial work aren't worth the paper they are written on if you are trying to sell your quality. Price is the only thing that matters to them bowdarkskulls.

You have to get to the decision makers and sell them on your method/technique/skills in order to get beyond "low bid gets the job" crap mentality that rules the industry.