Mrs. Dan's Master Bathroom Remodel

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And oh - some photos, but not of any actual tile work. But still.

The design called for a new window, so....

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Some simple, but necessary framing, with a little electrical thrown in.

[makethatkerdistick]

Nice window, that! Looks like a casement window (which is the smart choice for those who don't like the excessive air infiltration of sliders or double-hungs). With my one-story brick with massive roof overhang I didn't have to worry as much about the flashing (flashing brick veneer is its own beast).

Are you going to insulate the outside wall with foam, cellulose or mineral wool/fiberglass? If the latter two, run a bead of sprayfoam around the perimeter of the cavity to seal air leaks.

Like you, I am in the getting-slowly-excited-about-the-actual-tiling phase (meaning: a whole slew of stuff that needs to be completed before even contemplating tile).

Not so fond of those Carlon boxes but I did put one in just like yours (three gang for switches). They're ok for switches but it didn't naturally sit straight in the cavity, curving inward. What a piece of ..... rubbish. It needed some customized piece of plywood to push it forward and flush with the drywall. Metal is so much nicer but my home center didn't have a three-gang switch box.

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As I go through this house room by room I've been replacing the old dbl hungs with casements. Can't beat 'em for eliminating air infiltration. We've actually added 6 new windows that weren't there before to this house. That one, because it's on a North wall, and so close to the vanities, is triple pane.

Yup, fiberglass in the 2X6 exterior walls. I have two stud bays with plumbing supply lines in them so I did already caulk the sheathing to the studs to eliminate air infiltration in the bays.

Turns out I wasn't a fan of those flimsy 3 gang 44 CI Carlon boxes either. They also deform a bit when nailed tight to the stud and yeah - they tend to bend inward. I solved the latter with drywall shims but in the end I swapped them out the day after I installed them for heavier duty 53 CI 3 gangs. They don't deform when nailed on, and the extra CI's helps with wiring and keeps box "fill" well within code. Still had to shim them a little.

[makethatkerdistick]

Imagine if you sprayed those 2x6 cavities with foam, a cocoon of comfort! I only have 2x4 walls (but in my climate zone that is sufficient).
I like triple-panes even in climate zones that don't strictly justify them. We sleep under a triple-pane window every night. Can't feel a lick of cold in our short but pronounced North Texas winters. They're now standard in most new construction in Europe.

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I briefly considered spray in foam for those two bays, but I don't think closed cell foam is available to a DIY'er (open cell isn't much better than fiberglass).

I'm more concerned about the water lines in those two bays than I am about comfort (R19 walls seems fairly effective in our region). But, there were water lines in one of those bays originally and we never had a problem. The pipes were haphazardly insulated, and that pipe insulation deteriorated over decades. So I think the combination of sealing the stud bays, well installed fiberglass, and leaving the front of the pipes clear of insulation so they can pick up heat radiated from the wall, should do the trick.


I'm even contemplating running the heated floor under the free standing vanities for added insurance.

[wwhitney]

Originally Posted by Dan

I don't think closed cell foam is available to a DIY'er

You can get two tank kits in sizes from 12 to 650 board feet, e.g.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Touch-n-Foa...n-Kit/50179527

Cheers, Wayne

[makethatkerdistick]

I agree that if it's just two bays, then the effort will not be worth it over traditional fiberglass batts to make a noticeable difference. I just think fiberglass is so outdated as an insulator. Regardless, if your pipes are encased in the insulation from both sides I don't think you'll have to worry about freezing at all. The insulation retards heat movement equally on both sides, and so in the middle the pipes would be easily kept above freezing (unless you're in Alaska). For example: it's 20 deg. F outside and 70ish inside. If your pipes are equidistant from the inside and outside, then they'll end up at around 45ish. deg. F. Realistically, you'll never have to worry about freezing. Plus, there is no need to keep sections uninsulated to allow for radiant heat to reach the pipes.

And of course, even though the thickness of your wall cavity allows for R19 batts, your final wall will never be close due to the thermal bridging of all framing members. You're probably ending up with something like R14 (which is still good).

To get rid of thermal bridging, you'd have to either wrap the outside or inside in foam sheets that cover the framing members. I sacrificed 1/2 in on the inside to do that. That gives me a continuous layer of R3 foam sheets in addition to the cavity insulation. In extremely cold climates you have to go thicker but where we are, that is not at all necessary. Still, this is just my little warped mind and would be considered excessive by many other folks.

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Thanks Wolfgang,

The supply pipes in those two bays are fairly close to the front. Indeed, so close that I won't be able to cover the front of them with insulation so they will pick up a little radiant heat from the drywall.

Since those bays are air sealed, and the vanities will be placed in front, I also considered installed some small circular vents to allow room temp air into the bays in the area of the pipes.

Thanks Wayne. A little costly, and I'm not sure how I could control the fill to prevent it expanding to the point it presses against the supply and vent pipes. More to ponder.

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So, after realizing I hi-jacked Jeff's thread with my own business I'll make a sincere attempt at NOT doing that.

From left to right in the 3 gang: window shade remote, exhaust fan switch, dimmer for shower light cans. Above is tentatively the thermostat for the heated floor, and to the left of it the shower controller (Kohler recommends a height of 58" FFF to the center of the controller.

Opinions welcome. Too much going on in that area? I could move the t-stat and controller into the stud bay to the left but they would still be mounted higher than the 3 gang.

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After reading in their t-stat install manual about the need to keep the floor sensor wires from being in direct contact with AC wiring, I called Schulter yesterday for clarification.

The rep said they need to be in conduit. Since there's no mention of conduit in the manual I challenged him but he held his position.

I can't imagine needing conduit for the sensor wires. It does make sense to keep them off AC lines due to, I think, the potential to sense heat from those and therefore throw off the thermostat. Or perhaps the 60Hz frequency messes with them.

Whatever the reason, has anyone who's installed one of these systems run conduit? And, how close have you run the sensor wires to AC lines?

[wwhitney]

The NEC requires the heating wires to be in a raceway until they get to the floor. That is because they are individual wires, not a cable like Romex.

The NEC prohibits the sensor wires from being in the same raceway as the heating wires. That is because they are a limited power circuit and need to be separated from regular power wiring. [The separation rules in Article 725 are rather complicated, but when I did my install I concluded they couldn't be in the same raceway.]

The sensor wires do not themselves require a raceway; that is one of the extra liberties afforded limited power circuits.

P.S. As to your layout question, it's purely aesthetic, so it's entirely up to you. I could see right aligning the thermostat and the triple gang face plate, and left aligning the shower control.

Cheers, Wayne

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Interesting.

The install instructions for the heating wires and the t-stat do not specify conduit for the "cold tails" (the section of wire between the t-stat and the actual heat wire) or the sensors, but you are saying the NEC does require conduit for the cold tails due to them being individual wires.

Is a single stud bay considered a raceway?

[wwhitney]

No, a raceway is something like EMT, PVC, ENT, FMC, etc.

You could also set a box very low in the wall, run the cold tails into it (they are OK to cut shorter), and run NM from the low box to your thermostat location. But the box would need to be accessible via a blank cover.

P.S. For my install I ended up using a 4" square metal box with a mud ring, and running FMC (3/8" I think) to an open connector just behind the baseboard.

Cheers, Wayne

[makethatkerdistick]

I like Wayne's suggestion of keeping the shower controls away from the floor heating controls. Makes for a clear visual separation.