Mrs. Dan's Master Bathroom Remodel

[ss3964spd]

PC,

The existing lighting circuit runs the lights in the master bath, the lights in the hall bath, the hallway ceiling lights, both the exhaust fans, and a single outlet in the master bedroom, which is why I'm currently planning a dedicated lighting circuit for just the master bath. I can certainly snap in a GFCI breaker in the panel for the master bath lights and I'll probably run the master bath exhaust fan on that same circuit.

The existing GFCI, via a 15A GFCI breaker, supplies 1 outdoor outlet, the outlet in the downstairs power room, and the outlets in both upstairs bathrooms. So putting the MB outlets on a dedicated 20A GFCI will free up some capacity on the existing 15A GFCI. And since I'm not going to do any re-wiring when I get around to doing the hallway bath - which will be just a remove and replace job, I can leave the existing 15A GFCI alone.

Yeah, I know about the smoke detector thing. When we did the basement job I had to hardwire the detectors down there. And since I had easy access I extended that same 14/3 run up the family room and on to the upstairs attic. I currently have a detector in the upstairs hallway but it will be relatively painless to wire in the 4 bedrooms when I get around to it.

[ss3964spd]

This is the current rendering.

[wwhitney]

No need for GFCI for lighting circuits over a shower. Instead, from the 2011 NEC (I haven't checked the 2012 IRC, but would expect it to be similar):

Originally Posted by 2011 NEC

410.10 Luminaires in Specific Locations.

(A) Wet and Damp Locations. Luminaires installed in wet or damp locations shall be installed such that water cannot enter or accumulate in wiring compartments, lampholders, or other electrical parts. All luminaires installed in wet locations shall be marked, “Suitable for Wet Locations.” All luminaires installed in damp locations shall be marked “Suitable for Wet Locations” or “Suitable for Damp Locations.”
[. . .]
(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord-connected luminaires, chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended luminaires, lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the space directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires located within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub or shower to a height of 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be marked for damp locations, or marked for wet locations where subject to shower spray.

For can lights, I believe the wet or damp location rating is determined by the trim selection.

If you want to install an exhaust fan directly over a shower, I believe most manufacturers' instructions will allow this but require the fan to be on a GFCI.

Cheers, Wayne

[ss3964spd]

Thanks Wayne, I had read the same thing. What I want to avoid, though, is a debate with a possibly misinformed inspector, on inspection day. If a GFCI breaker removes any doubt it may be money well spent.

I'd actually be tempted to argue the exhaust fan though. Even though it is directly above the shower, it is WAY above the shower in the skylight shaft, probably 13 feet above the floor. Still, no big effort on my behalf to wire it into a GFCI circuit.

[wwhitney]

From http://productspec.ul.com/document.p...GPWX.GuideInfo

Originally Posted by UL Product Category GPWX

Ceiling-insert fans, wall-insert fans, and ceiling-insert fan/light combinations marked "Acceptable for use over a bathtub or shower when installed in a GFCI protected branch circuit" are intended for use anywhere within a bathroom ceiling surface, including over bathtubs, showers, or within the zone above the bathtub and shower area as defined by Article 410 of the NEC. These products are investigated to determine the effects of moisture (dampness or wetting), such as shower spray. Products without this marking are intended for use anywhere within a bathroom ceiling surface, excluding the area directly above the footprint of the bathtub or shower.

That's somewhat ambiguous about your application. On the one hand the last sentence's exclusion is independent of height; on the other hand, the reference to the NEC is for section 410.10(D) I just posted, which is only concerned with the region up to 8 feet above the shower/tub threshold. So implicitly your location shouldn't require a GFCI for the ventilation fan.

Obviously I can't predict your inspector's behavior, but I would say you don't need GFCI for either the can lights or the ventilation fan. However, if your inspector disagrees, I think that the argument against needing GFCI for the can lights (NEC 410.10) is stronger than the argument against needing GFCI for for the ventilation fan.

Cheers, Wayne

[PC7060]

Nice looking layout for the bathroom!

I don’t know any way you can avoid gfci protection for any fans or lights installed in the 8’ high exclusion area, also have to consider it extends 3’ out from the side of the tub or shower.

Originally Posted by ss3964spd

If a GFCI breaker removes any doubt it may be money well spent.

Very true, Especially since you’d then have to buy a AFCI breaker which cost only a little less than a gfci breaker. I’d put light and fan on the same gfci citcut and call it done!

[wwhitney]

Originally Posted by PC

I don’t know any way you can avoid gfci protection for any fans or lights installed in the 8’ high exclusion area, also have to consider it extends 3’ out from the side of the tub or shower.

As the sections of the NEC I posted indicate, there is no blanket requirement for GFCI on lights in the tub/shower zone. All that is required is a damp or wet rating as appropriate.

Now, it could be the case that the manufacturer of a damp or wet rated recessed can trim indicates that GFCI is required to get that rating. However, I don't believe that to be typical for lighting, unlike with bath fans.

Cheers, Wayne

[PC7060]

Hey Wayne, thanks for posting the UL language. The key caveat of the UL language is ”when installed in a GFCI protected branch circuit". So basically they are only certifying that moisture will not degrade the item since they are relying on the GFCI for safety.

[ss3964spd]

Does using a GFCI for the shower light cans remove the necessity for using "wet" rated can's/trims?

[PC7060]

No (IMO) because the two standard reference requirements established by the other.

NEC 410 requires UL listed wet area luminaires and the UL wet area lights require GFCI.

Is it hard to find lights that are wet area certified that also have the spousal approval rating? If your house is anything like mine the answer is yeeeesss!

[ss3964spd]

Once you've seen one recessed light you've seen them all - says she. LOL

Now the debate about the fixtures at the vanities was a different matter. I was all about pendants, she was all about sconces.

I ordered the sconces yesterday.

[PC7060]

[Carbidetooth]

Dimmable, LED, wet rated, 3000K, 1000 lumens, easy to install almost anywhere. What's not to like?

[wwhitney]

Originally Posted by PC

UL wet area lights require GFCI.

That is incorrect to my knowledge. The UL section I posted applies only to ventilation fans, not lights.

Cheers, Wayne

[ss3964spd]

The size, Peter, and they don't appear to be line level powered.

The shower is about 42" wide and 84" long. Am planning to use three 3" diameter cans in there, but may stretch it to four.