Mrs. Dan's Master Bathroom Remodel

[wwhitney]

Originally Posted by Dan

If I'm reading it right, current code wants a dedicated 20A GFCI per bathroom

My understanding is that every bathroom must have a GFCI receptacle that is on a 20A circuit that either:

(a) serves only loads in one bathroom, or
(b) serves only GFCI receptacles in one or more bathrooms.

Cheers, Wayne

[Gozo]

Hi Dan,
Certainly depends more on the inspector as much (if not more) than the code. My inspector didn’t want any electrical boxes in the same wall cavity as any plumbing. Wire running through was OK though. I wasn’t about to start to argue and do the “show me where is says that in the code”, for fear I’d be on the “fail him on everything” list. Wound up moving the plumbing as the outlet was in the opposite room on the back of the wall, and not really in a good place to move.

[ss3964spd]

Yup, that's it, thanks Wayne.

Yeah Jeff, the whim of the inspector is what I'm trying to avoid. Logic tells me an electrical box, what with all their holes, in a plumbing supply wall would likely be a no go for the inspectors but the same logic tells me romex poses no hazard given the conductors are basically double insulated.

However, as Mrs. Dan is apt to point out, not everyone follows my logic. Go figure.

To really screw with my small brain, the first inspector - after I shared with him that I was going to pull a new line to meet that dedicated 20A requirement, shared off the record that they would pass the existing 15A because it is existing. I briefly considered not pulling the new one but then remembered how IW (inspector whim) could bite me.

I noted the name, date, and time of the one I spoke with via phone regarding the wiring/plumbing cohabitation. I think I'm covered.

[ss3964spd]

The entirety of this 14X7 bath is over an unheated 2 car garage. Original supply and waste lines were in the 2X10 joist cavities, and original vanity against a North facing 2X6 framed exterior wall with the supply lines coming up in the stud bay. The 3/4" lines that feed the bathroom originate in a crawl space and make the trip to the bathroom through a 2X4 framed load bearing wall between the house and garage, and that wall is insulated with R13. It appears the pipes are held close to the warm side, as they were in the vanity stud bay. In the vanity stud bay they were wrapped in some deteriorating foam pipe insulation.

We've been here for 18 years and have never had a pipe break, and it does get cold here in the DC region. When I opened up the floor and wall I didn't see any evidence of prior repairs. The insulation work was best described as shoddy; many gaps, much compressed, sections completely missing. See photo below.

The new set up will be largely the same, pipes in the floor and the exterior wall, but with much greater care spent on sealing and insulation. I installed 2 continuous layers of R13 under the supply lines in the floor, though it did get compressed a bit in some spots so I am figuring on an overall R value of 23 or so. I still have enough depth to lay in more R13 (though it too would be slightly compressed).

Here's the question (finally, right?): should I add more insulation over the supply lines in the floor? Will any heat from the finished floor radiate downwards enough to add any degree of warmth to the pipes (adding more insulation would effectively block that heat)?

[wwhitney]

Yes, heat will radiate/conduct down through the floor to the pipes. Adding insulation on top of them will retard that heat flow, lowering the temperature of the pipes.

However, I would think that in your climate, having twice as much insulation on the cold side of the pipe as on the warm side of the pipes will still keep the pipes above freezing. As a first approximation, the temperature gradient should be linear across the thickness of the insulation, so if it is 0 degrees in the garage and 66 degrees in the bathroom, the pipes would still be at 44 degrees.

Often air leakage can be a big a source of heat loss as simple conduction. Did you take the opportunity to air seal the exterior sheathing and garage ceiling before you insulated the cavities?

Cheers, Wayne

[ss3964spd]

Thanks Wayne.

I had read the same thing about air leakage being a factor. When I removed all the old insulation from the joist bays I found some very large voids into the drywall clad cavity below that houses the steel support beam. The amount of air coming out of those was pretty impressive. Sealed all those. Did not seal where the drywall of the garage ceiling attaches to the bottom of the joists simply because I couldn't do the entire length without removing the floor in the adjoining closet and hallway bathroom. Hopefully the carefully fitted insulation will do the trick there, and it cannot be worse than what was there.

I did seal the sheathing to the 2X6 framing in the stud bays where the new supply lines are. Those bays will get R19 (or R21 if I can find it), which will get a little compressed but no more so than it was originally. I'll probably also install pipe insulation on the supplies, but only about 3/4 around - leaving the front open to the interior wall so radiant heat can get to them.

[wwhitney]

If you've got fiberglass on both sides of a pipe in a cavity, I don't see how the rigid foam pipe insulation adds much. Does it have a higher R-value per inch than the fiberglass?

BTW, in case it is useful, compressing fiberglass insulation decreases the total R-value, but it increases the R-value per inch. That's the difference between an R-21 batt and an R-23 batt--the R-23 batt is denser, while they are the same thickness.

So the upshot is that it is OK to stuff fiberglass into a cavity and compress it, as long as the whole cavity is still filled. It's just inefficient to compress the fiberglass in part of the cavity and leave a void elsewhere in the cavity.

Cheers, Wayne

[ss3964spd]

Regarding the pipe insulation - I meant for the pipes in the walls, not the floor. The 1/2" copper in the walls (2 vanities, so 2 pairs) comes up through the 2X6 bottom/sole plate very close to its room side face, thereby placing the pipes very close to the back of the drywall. I'll seal all the penetrations into those stud bays and when I hang the DW I'll run a generous bead of panel adhesive around the framing for those two bays, hopefully eliminating any air movement. The pipes should pick up some radiated heat from the drywall.

Yes, from what I've read, inch for inch foam has a higher R value, some types are better than others.

Here's the FG compression chart I liked:
https://insulationinstitute.org/wp-c...d_R_values.pdf

[PC7060]

Hey Dan, Cool project!

Originally Posted by ss3964spd

Pulling them was approximately zero fun

Yep, been there. Ran approximately 2500' of 14 and 12 gauge wire when I rewired our 1920's house to replace the legacy knob & tube. The 12 gauge stuff is much tougher to run; only thing harder was 10 gauge runs for the HVAC units.

Originally Posted by ss3964spd

...the new lines come up in a stud bay occupied by copper supply lines. The question is - is it code compliant?

Nothing in the NEC (though 2014) place any limitation on running Romex in vicinity of water lines. You can even zip-tie Romex to water lines to meet support requirements.

Originally Posted by wwhitney

My understanding is that every bathroom must have a GFCI receptacle that is on a 20A circuit that either:

(a) serves only loads in one bathroom, or
(b) serves only GFCI receptacles in one or more bathrooms.

That is correct!

One 20A, 120V branch circuit for the receptacle outlets required by 210.52(D) for a dwelling unit bathroom or multiple bathrooms. This circuit can’t supply lighting, fans or other outlets in rooms other than bathrooms [210.11(C)(3)]

A dedicated 20A circuit can supply all of the outlets, lighting and fans in a single bathroom, if no single load fastened in place is rated more than 10A [210.11(C)(3) Ex and 210.23(A)]

GFCI protection can be provided either by a GFCI breaker in the panel or GFCI outlets configured with either a master controlling all protected devices or dedicated GFCI devices at each location

[ss3964spd]

Hey PC,

Yeah, has been a good project but the amount of time I've spent just getting the floor straightened out is ridiculous. I am so ready to move on to another aspect - which will be the wiring.

Thanks for confirming some of the previous questions. As it stands I'll probably run the outlets (3) and the exhaust fan off that new 20A circuit. I'll move all the lighting loads to another new 15A circuit, and finally run the floor on a 3rd 20A circuit. I still need to research if the recessed lights in the shower can be simply "wet" rated or if those too need to be on the GFCI line (I'll be using a GFCI breaker in the panel).

A 1920's house....you have your work cut out for ya. I grew up in an early 1900's house in Arlington, I so know what you're dealing with!

Regards...

[PC7060]

Dan - The lights may be only be used on a non gfci circuit in a wet area if they are UL listed for that purpose or if the lights are more than 8’ above the Curb of the shower or the upper edge of the tub. So you will need to read the fine print from the manufacturer. Fun fun!

Or you could run the lights off the single 20 amp gfci circuit along with the outlets and fan.

Re the floor, yeah, looking at your project reminded me of all the framing headaches with my bathrooms. It’s very nice when you finally have a strong flat floor. Just keep an eye on the cat before you seal up the floor.

Also, not sure this is a issue for your configuration but switched legs from light to switch box are required to have neutral lines under the 2014 NEC version (requires 3 conductor wire to switch). They added the requirement to ensure all the smart switches have neutral so they don’t dump current onto the safety ground which can cause nuisance tripping of AFCI breakers.

[Kman]

Yo, PC!! Good to hear from you.


The last house I finished, the inspector said that as of 2017 the NEC requires Arc fault/GFCI breakers for everything. I don't know if that would hold true for remodels.

[ss3964spd]

Thanks PC and Kevin.

Just looked at my permit. It states the applicable code is IRC 2012 so I imagine they're not holding me to any other versions. Nevertheless, I can give them a call about the shower lights. I figured they'd need to be "wet" rated.

I will likely be using smart switches, a company called "Noon" has some very interesting ones. Their "master" switch communicates with the slave switches via Bluetooth. The master is programmed with the scenes you want but you can still control the individual zones with only the slaves. I'll have to read up on how to wire the legs with 3 wire.

[PC7060]

Hey, Kevin! How’s it going?

Dan - The 3-wire leg is very simple, just like normal switch leg; power out from light (black), return through switch (red), neutral just goes along for the ride until some device needs it in future.

Be sure to cap the neutral off because the AFCI breakers will trip if neutral touches safety ground. Took me a while to figure that one out when I had to upgrade my breakers to AFCI during a basement buildout a few years ago. Had to pull every outlet before I found the culprit in one of the original outlets.

I will say my inspector for the 1928 house rewire asked me about the 3-wire switch leg during rough in inspection (why did you do that?) and wasn’t aware of the code requirement. There are a bunch of exemptions where it’s not required if a neutral can be added thru a conduit or raceway or if the wall is to be left open allowing access to switch wiring. NEC 2011 404.2(C)

The applicable NEC code in effect in our county (Fairfax) is 2011 which require all outlets and lights be either AFCI or GFCI based on location with the exception of specific dedicated sources for refrigerators and the like.

Fairfax also made me update the CO and smoke detectors for entire house to meet latest code. Didn’t require them to be hardwired together but had to be one detector in every bedroom and CO detectors in hallways. Fun fun and Mrs. PC wasn’t happy about the green led in the bedroom (but now I think she appreciates the “nightlight” benefit of the led)

[PC7060]

Regarding smart switches, I’ve installed Leviton moisture sensing switches (IPHS5-1LW Humidity Sensor and Fan Control/$24) to control the fans in several bathrooms and am impressed with how effective they are. Can also press to turn on for biologically induced venting needs.