Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Welcome to John Bridge / Tile Your World, the friendliest DIY Forum on the Internet


Advertiser Directory
JohnBridge.com Home
Buy John Bridge's Books

Go Back   Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile > Tile & Stone Forums > Tile Forum/Advice Board

Sponsors


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Unread 01-14-2021, 03:01 PM   #1
Jnewb74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 20
Hall Bath Time Machine Overhaul Questions

Hello all,

Long time lurker, first time poster. The posts and info on this site have always been great, so I figured I would get your opinion on some things related to my project. Thank you in advance!

I have a home built in 1986 and the upstairs hall bath has been in need of a reno since we moved in. I call it the Time Machine.

I am a DIYer where it makes sense, and I decided recently to jump right into the bathroom job last week, where I ripped up the tile, removed the vanity and then promptly came to a halt and need some advice.

So, I am planning on updating the floor tile with some Daltile 6x24" porcelain tile from Depot (gray wood look). I'm also planning on pulling down the tile above the tub, and replacing that as well, but I haven't demo'd that quite yet. More Qs on that one below.

Question 1a: when I pulled the existing vanity out, I immediately noticed that it was sunken and sat directly on the plywood subfloor. This gray material shown in the photo is 1.25", and I'd like to understand that that is? Is that self-leveling concrete? Or some kind of extra thick backer board they used in 1986? Help!

Question 1b: If yes, do you recommend that I remove all of that and use the SLC again to fill the space? I need it to be at that height again to match the level of the carpet in the hallway. Or, do I remove all of it and go another way to reach 1.25" height? What materials would you use to prep for this type of tile? Recommendations here?

Question 2: As you can see, they originally had tile trim which I've removed, and it has ripped up the drywall a good bit down there after demo. I was trying not to replace all of the drywall in the entire room - but if I need to do so, so be it. Would you recommend doing so? Or, could I cut a 6" strip along the bottom and replace/mud or would this be more trouble than what it's worth? I haven't drywalled an entire room before, so I'm a greenhorn there! If it's not too bad, I'll go for it.

Question 3: For the tub tile removal and replacement, I was going to rip that out entirely, use the same plumbing locations for the hardware (replace with updated hardware) and then retile with 3x6" ceramic white subway tile. I was looking at the Kerdi board wall kit and niche and considered just going all the way to the ceiling with the tile or stopping where they currently halt - not sure yet. Do you recommend using the Kerdi, and what steps shall I use there for replacement of that tile? I was also going to have the tub resurfaced to white (it's currently almond) as a final step.

Any and all suggestions to the above would be amazing, and thank you!

Best
Jay
Attached Images
      
__________________
Jay
Jnewb74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 01-14-2021, 03:41 PM   #2
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 92,239
Welcome, Jay.

1. I'm guessing that material to be deck mud, which is hands down the best substrate available for ceramic tile. Or it could be poured concrete, which would be a less good option.

But neither option is good in its current condition and I expect you'll spend more time trying to clean up and flatten the surface - if it's still in satisfactory condition - than you would removing and replacing it.

In that regard, we need to know what the subfloor material is and you should also evaluate your joist system using our Deflectometer in the dark blue bar near the top of the page.

2. You can likely just patch the drywall areas with setting-type drywall compound.

3. I recommend against having the tub painted. You won't be happy. If you want a different tub color, and if you still want a tub rather than a shower, I'd recommend a new tub.

Judging by your floor, the tub surround walls are going to be of a similar cementitious material, but a bit more difficult to remove.

Your tile and waterproofing currently do not go high enough on the wall to meet code or tile industry standards. Your waterproofing must go above that pipe serving the shower head and the tile must go at least as high as the waterproofing.

Have you decided upon a waterproofing method for the shower?

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!

Last edited by cx; 02-06-2021 at 09:19 PM. Reason: typo
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-14-2021, 04:18 PM   #3
Jnewb74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 20
Thx!

Appreciate it, CX!

So, I should likely take the tile and waterproofing to the ceiling then. Sounds fine. For waterproofing - I haven’t considered it yet, but was looking into Kerdi. What do you recommend?

I will see if I can determine those joist specs and use the deflectometer and will post results soon...interested to know what you suggest for the substrate to get it up 1.25”!

For the tub... bummer. I have no idea how to go at the tub removal/replacement, but I take your word for it. Yes, it’s an almond tub that we want white. So a replacement may be needed.

Btw, the walls are “textured” so I am going to try and knock that down with a sander... we will see how that goes. Go to know I can just mud the lower walls and be ok!

Best
Jay
__________________
Jay
Jnewb74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-14-2021, 06:26 PM   #4
Jnewb74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 20
Joists / Deflecto

Hi,
I've gone into the attic above the bathroom and measured the joists up there. Assuming it would be the same? My home doesn't have spot that is open to immediately see them without opening a hole or removing the existing subfloor. Please let me know if you think this works.

Based on the Deflectometer - deflection of L / 336.

Subfloor looks to be .5" plywood currently - which the photos I've attached show.

I've also took a snap of what the material is looking like behind the shower tile, and full view of the shower just to get a full picture.

Would love opinion....

Thanks a lot!
Attached Images
    
__________________
Jay
Jnewb74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-14-2021, 07:26 PM   #5
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 92,239
Naa, you can't tell anything at all about your floor joists by looking at the ceiling joists above, Jay. But that's OK on accounta you'll soon get to see the floor joists.

Half-inch plywood is how you call double-plus un-good for a first layer of subflooring. Doesn't meet anybody's building code and doesn't meet ceramic tile industry standard requirements for subflooring under a ceramic tile installation. But other than that it's OK.

Seriously, you can't start with that. Yeah, they got away with it the first time with the mud bed, we got away with a lot of stuff when we used mud beds for our tile substrate, but you don't wanna try to get away with it again, even if you do another mud bed, which I'd recommend.

Part of the problem is that the half-inch material does not have T&G edges and I'll wager heavily that the edges are not blocked from below. For a mud bed of minimum 1 1/4" thickness with welded wire mesh in the vertical center, the minimum requirement is nominal 5/8ths" exterior glue plywood with T&G edges over joist spacing of no more than 16" on center. For a mud bed of a minimum thickness of 3/4" over expanded metal lath, the requirement is for nominal 3/4" exterior glue plywood with T&G edges over joist spaced no wider than 16" on center. Either way, you gotta have a better subfloor.

You could, of course, install a layer of 3/4" plywood over what you've got, fastening to the joists as though the half-inch layer was not even there, but then you don't have room for your very nice mud bed.

Some decisions required.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-15-2021, 10:10 AM   #6
Jnewb74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 20
More Qs

Hi CX,

Again, thank you for the continued advice. Hmm. Interesting. Well, is a mud bed the only way to go here? If I remove the existing mud and try and add a layer of T&G plywood over the existing .5" subfloor, what choices do I have?

If I add another layer of .25" plywood over the existing, giving me .75" subfloor, I'd need another 1" to reach my target of 1.25" prior to thinset and tiles, right? Is this feasible?

Alternatively, could I add .5" T&G ply to the existing .5, giving me 1" subfloor - this would allow for the substrate to be .75 to reach my 1.25" height?

Thoughts on this?

I'm not entirely comfortable with going the mud bed route having never done that before, also. Willing to try though, but seems like a skill best left to the experts?

I think I'm going to have a guy replace the tub for me...

Appreciate your opinion...
__________________
Jay
Jnewb74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-15-2021, 11:08 AM   #7
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 92,239
Doesn't work that way, Jay. Your half-inch first layer just doesn't count. The only way you can make it part of your subfloor would be if the surface were in near pristine condition and you glued-laminated a second layer of half-inch exterior glue plywood with no face of grade lower than C to the existing layer with a full spread of wood glue and a great gaggle of screws. No industry standard for that. See my warranty information below.

1/4" plywood has no real structural value and has no place in a subfloor package for a ceramic tile installation.

As I said above, you could pretend the half-inch layer isn't there and install a 3/4" subfloor attached to the joists and have a usable single-layer subfloor.

Or you could remove the half-inch layer and install the 3/4" layer and still have room for a mortar bed, which is what I would recommend.

My opinion; worth price charged.
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-26-2021, 08:01 AM   #8
Jnewb74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 20
Update

Hello,
Back to this project after a little hiatus! Ok, so I've decided to replace the tub and now that I've removed all of the mud bed (bit of a pain), and smashed the cast iron tub to bits to remove (easier than anticipated), I have decided to add another layer of 5/8" to the existing 5/8" subfloor, then add .5" or .25" Hardiebacker to it, then my ceramic floor tile.

BTW, my existing subfloor is 5/8" (not .5" as previously noted).

Q: For the tub location, after I add the additional layer of subfloor 5/8", is raising the tub drain an easy assignment? Assuming so, but would love opinion.

Also, for the toilet flange, since I need to use the drop-in repair style, anything I should be thinking about there?

Thanks in advance!

Name:  1 Tubarea.jpg
Views: 96
Size:  69.8 KB
Name:  2 TubNoMore.jpg
Views: 94
Size:  88.2 KB
Name:  3 Vanityarea.jpg
Views: 93
Size:  73.7 KB
__________________
Jay

Last edited by Tool Guy - Kg; 01-26-2021 at 11:52 PM. Reason: Rotate pictures to correct orientation :)
Jnewb74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-26-2021, 08:46 AM   #9
ss3964spd
Moderator
 
ss3964spd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fairfax, Va
Posts: 3,923
Send a message via Yahoo to ss3964spd
Welcome back, Jay, I had the same fun busting up a CI tub a couple of weekends ago. Mine didn't give up so easily.

Adding 5/8" ply on toppa your existing 5/8" is fine, of course, but 1/2" ply will also be sufficient - and save you 1/8" in height at the entrance to the bathroom. Similarly, using 1/4" backer on the floor will save you 1/4" in height.

Regarding the tub drain; really depends how much vertical play the drain set up currently has. That said, I don't see much gain in adding the new ply under the tub but in any case, even though the drain set up for a "standard" 30X60 tub is fairly standard I would the replacement tub on site for at least measuring, if not out right test fitting, before committing to the drain assembly/location.

Not much too be concerned with the flange extenders, but much will be influenced by how high above the current subfloor the flange is now, and then how low below the finished floor it will be after you add all those layers. I would be remiss if I didn't mention that it is best that the toilet flange rest upon the finished floor, but I suspect ya already know that.
__________________
Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent, but my ability to access it is intermittent.
ss3964spd is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-26-2021, 04:22 PM   #10
Jnewb74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 20
Talking Thanks!

Hello!

Thank you for the quick reply. Good to know I could go .5" and be ok. In looking at my threshold, to be flush, I believe it would need to be just under 1.25" above the existing 5/8" subfloor. Based on my math, that is 1.875".

If I go with 5/8" (existing) + .5" (new add) + .25" hardie, plus .25" for tile/thinset, I'm thinking we will be in the neighborhood of 1.625".

If I go with 5/8" (existing) + 5/8" (new add) + .25" hardie, plus .25" for tile/thinset, we are looking at 1.75". That may be the ticket.

One of those should work.

Interesting on the tub. So, you're saying to dry fit that bad boy in there first to see how it lies and not add the new subfloor in that area at all? It would just be sunken a bit more, I guess? Not a bad idea.

For the flange, I am assuming I will need something like this from THD.

The question is, my existing pipe (as shown since the flange is long gone) is 1 5/8" as it is now above the existing sub. Not sure where the repair kit flange will sit in terms of height? What is the chicken and what is the egg?



Name:  Toilet.jpg
Views: 91
Size:  90.2 KB
__________________
Jay

Last edited by Tool Guy - Kg; 01-26-2021 at 11:54 PM. Reason: Rotate picture to correct orientation :)
Jnewb74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-27-2021, 09:37 PM   #11
Jnewb74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 20
Bueller?

Bueller? Any idea on this one?

Should I try and cut the rest of the existing flange out from the pipe and then see where we land once I have the new ply, Hardiebacker and tile down?
__________________
Jay
Jnewb74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-27-2021, 10:33 PM   #12
cx
Moderator emeritus
 
cx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 92,239
Don't know just what we're looking at there, Jay. Is that a pipe sticking up there or a coupling or other fitting?
__________________
CX

Y'ALL NEW VISITORS READ THIS HERE!
cx is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-28-2021, 09:10 AM   #13
ss3964spd
Moderator
 
ss3964spd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fairfax, Va
Posts: 3,923
Send a message via Yahoo to ss3964spd
Jay, appears the old flange was one that fit inside the toilet drain riser pipe, and the top portion of the flange was cut off, leaving the male lower section still inside the pipe. Hard to tell from the photo - is that riser pipe plastic?
__________________
Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I recall correctly my memory is excellent, but my ability to access it is intermittent.
ss3964spd is online now   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-28-2021, 11:07 AM   #14
Jnewb74
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 20
Correct

Thanks again, both!

Hi Dan,
That is absolutely correct. The circular flange portion was broken and we cut it off (which, in retrospect might have been a mistake. Doh).

So, yes, the riser pipe appears to be a plastic of some kind, as was/is the male lower section of the flange shaft which remains inside.

I won't know *exactly* where the height will land until I choose my layering for the subfloor I mentioned earlier - but what do you suggest in terms of prep? Shall I try and remove the remaining portion of the flange shaft in there?
__________________
Jay
Jnewb74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-29-2021, 05:25 PM   #15
Lostsignal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 6
I'm just a diy guy, but having recently completed a bathroom gut and becoming much more familiar with plumbing I can add some info.

That appears to be a closet bend 90 due to its size/shape that is made from ABS. You cannot chisel out the flange. ABS pieces use ABS cement to join them together. The cement dissolves the two pieces together.

You will need to cut out the subfloor and cut the drain or you can do the same if you have access from below. You will need to add a coupling to the drain piece and another short piece of 3" drain to reach the correct distance for the rough-in. Then you add a 90.

There are 4 different 90 bends: vent 90, regular 90, long sweep 90, and closet bend 90. You can't use a vent 90. The other 3 are all possible, but local code may specify. They will all end up sticking up from the subfloor at different heights.

A closet bend has a high vertical rise that I've read plumbers have cut after the floor is complete. Again this is something I've read but you will want to look more into it.

A closet bend allows you to use a flange that goes either on the outside or the inside of the bend. If you get one that goes outside the bend then it allows you to replace the flange by cutting it off and replace it with a flange that goes inside the bend without any interference, as long as you cut the old one off cleanly and level with the bend and you don't damage the bend in the process.

Get a flange that has a stainless ring and use stainless screws to hold it down. The flange should sit on top of the finished floor. Back up plan would be to have it level/flush with the finished floor.
__________________
K
Lostsignal is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Stonetooling.com   Tile-Assn.com   National Gypsum Permabase


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hall Bath Remodel: Many Questions jmvar Tile Forum/Advice Board 19 03-28-2018 07:45 AM
Rob's Master Bath Overhaul saebeil Tile Forum/Advice Board 4 01-27-2016 12:55 PM
Ed's Half-Bath Overhaul coldsolderjoint Tile Forum/Advice Board 9 03-24-2013 05:49 AM
About to get into a master bath overhaul... btlazenby Tile Forum/Advice Board 10 11-21-2012 01:21 PM
Master Bath Overhaul vanwassup Tile Forum/Advice Board 110 12-03-2008 09:57 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:59 AM.


Sponsors

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2018 John Bridge & Associates, LLC