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Unread 08-22-2002, 09:30 PM   #1
Tom
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When laying plywood over a plank subfloor, is it best to screw it to the planks, like I've always done, or paint the whole subfloor with glue before laying the plywood, like I read in another forum. Does it matter either way? It seems like the latter would be stronger, but I'm concerned about the movement of the new plywood against the older solid wood if glued. This would be for a cbu and tile.
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Unread 08-22-2002, 09:46 PM   #2
jay f
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Other guys may differ, but I prefer to glue my ply and screw the pi** out of it, then the cbu then tile. My reasoning is that if you also glue the ply, you practicaly eliminate any voids under your ply. Voids=air space, air space=movement, movement under tile=potential failure.
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Unread 08-22-2002, 11:48 PM   #3
Cisco
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Doesnt anyone do mud floors anymore!!! Plywood, wonderboard, durarock, hardi-backer, screws, glue, construction adhesive, etc., etc.. And after all that the floor is still as unlevel and warped as it was before you started. How could you call yourself a tile man If you dont do mud? I guess I will never understand it

OK!!! I feel better now



I am not directing this at anyone, Its just a rant
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Unread 08-23-2002, 06:26 AM   #4
John Bridge
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Tom,

I agree with Jay. Use construction adhesive that comes in caulking tubes. It remains somewhat pliable and will allow for movement.

Cisco,

I don't know whether you've noticed, but the folks who come on this board (Advice Board) are not pro tile setters.
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Unread 08-23-2002, 10:08 PM   #5
jay f
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Cisco, I have been the trades for 18 years today, and to this day, I have SEEN 4 mud beds, One of which I personally done, Two I helped on, and one done by an unknown person. The problem here is there isn't any contractors in this area that are willing to pay for, warranty, or deal with a mud bed with acrylic shower pans. I have a hell of a time selling GC's on cbu's alone when they can have their drywallers do greenboard twice as fast and half as much as me doing cbu.
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Unread 08-24-2002, 05:55 AM   #6
Cisco
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Jay,

I was referring to mud floors not walls. I agree with you that mud walls are a thing of the past. Most of the newer products out there (CBU’s/ Wedi panels/ membranes) have rendered mud walls obsolete. I could sooner sell ice to an Eskimo before I could sell a client on floated mud walls. On the other hand, If I tried to sell anything less then a mud substrat on flooring I probably would be tarred and feathered and hung out to dry .I never have or never will install CBU or the like as a substrat for ceramic or stone flooring. These products where developed to eliminate the need for experienced mechanics and to reduce labor costs. These products are great for walls and the pros outweigh the cons when compared to floated walls.



John,

Isn’t the advice given to use these products on floors given by Pro tile setters? How would a Pro tile setter be able to give advice on these products if he didn’t use them himself? That's what I was ranting about. I wouldn’t feel comfortable giving a warranty if I used them.
I know most of the people asking for advice are DIY'ers/ weekend warriors and don’t have the experience to do mud flooring, But, I see a lot of them tackling a hybrid shower installation which I think is a lot more difficult then a regular mud floor. I just can’t see the benefit of using them as a mud replacement for flooring. I believe the final result is a sub-standard job. If this was a perfect world and all floors where flat and level CBU's would be the best thing since sliced bread....


My Rant: Version 1.1



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Unread 08-24-2002, 07:55 AM   #7
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Tom:

What John said.

I don't know nothin' about tile, but I know nothing adds rigidity to a floor (or anything else wood) like glue. Glue it and screw it and walk on it - it'll be quiet, too.

Cisco:

In my area (not too far from John's area), I still do nothing but full mud boxes for showers. Why? Because I still have a tile man who can do that. I never even offer my customers an option, I just tell them that's how a proper shower is constructed and that's what they'll get if I do their shower. Now, comes the day I can't get my tile man and I hafta do one myownself........? From what I've learnt hereabouts, I suppose I'd do a CBU shower with some of that black pookey onna walls and all. Let's all hope my tile man lives a long and healthy life, shall we?
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Unread 08-24-2002, 10:00 AM   #8
floorman1
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Cool mud

ya know every one needs to understand that there are as many ways to install tile as there are setters.Some are just that not better or worse just different.Some are really f*(&^# up and have no business any where near a tile job or construction site for that matterIt's all in the way were taught .I've been saying since getting o nthese boards that as journeymen of the trade it is our responsibility to teach our "cubs" the proper way of doing things to ensure the quality of workmanship remains high.So stop all this holier than thow crap and come to the realization that opinions are like a%%holes everyone has them.Now in my neck of the woods we do'nt do alot of mud work only on some high end residential work i happen to be one of the lucky ones who had some good teachers and i was shown the proper way of doin that sort of thing,not alot of people here know how to do that right.someone just went off on me in a different place on this site for something i wrote that came from somewhere else this a published article from the tca i dont agree with it but its a different method that is all different not better not worse just different .Works for them i guess whew im done now coming down off the cross some on needs the wood im sure
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Unread 08-24-2002, 11:17 AM   #9
Dave Gobis
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I did't go off, only Bud goes off here. I "assisted" in defining the intent of the guideline and drawing. Hey, I'm also Journeyman, 414274, Local 4. We are family!

As for mud shower bases, class starts Wednesday here in sunny, hot, SC.
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Unread 08-24-2002, 12:18 PM   #10
John Bridge
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We're not forgetting you, Tom. Some of the boys are just venting a little.

It's a funny thing, I guess, but here in the Houston area I don't have any trouble at all selling mud showers. I've never done one with backer board, not that I wouldn't some day.

I have said for a long time that backer board holds no advantage at all for a mud man, and I know Dave will agree. We've discussed it before. Dave has a good way of expressing it, so I'll let him speak for himself.

As for me, in the time it takes to straighten studs, nail up backer board, tape it and float it, all while figuring out how to deal with the shower pan area, I can float a shower and probably have the back wall set with tile. And every wall will be plumb and flat.

Mud walls are not, nor will they become, obsolete. There is simply no better shower on the face of the Earth than one constructed with cement mortar and ceramic tile.

Thousands of people are willing to pay for it. I wish there were more of me. I'm in demand constantly.



So when did the New York City area bite the bullet?

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Unread 08-24-2002, 12:55 PM   #11
Trask
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Talking



Glue it and screw it. I get liquid nails in a bucket and trowel it under ply.

Cisco,
I must take issue with the notion that mud walls are a thing of the past. What new fangled cbu/membrane ect. can plumb up and flatten a shower wall in the leaning tower of Pizza? I paid the folks at CTEF good money to fill in the holes in my mud work knowledge, and have realized a huge return on that effort. Not just on old victorian house remodels, but on high end new const. The wood these days isn't gettin' any better. I push Mud walls evey chance I get, and with larger stones and tiles goin up on the walls I feel like the time I lose on the scratch coat is almost returned in the setting. Nice plumb corners to cut to and a flat surface to set on makes the insallation real fun. I charge accordingly for my time and my customers seem to be willing to pay for the difference in quality. If they bock, I have the option..or I find new customers that will. If that customer does not exist, they will at some point. Sound quality will forever have it's market niche, no matter the time or price.
Economies at some point always return* to see the ressurgence of the artisan. The white collars pay for craftsmanship and knowledge, and I'll be there with an old mans bag of tricks some used mud sticks and a grey collar ready to perform.

*psudo mudman demographic paradigmatic rant inclusive of all critical examinations within perspectus on historical nature of siclical class stratificationsarenthetical emphisis regarding proto-typical short term capital venturist vs. multigenerational indidginous skill based craftspeople within localised market climates.<still in r&d>. version 1.2
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Unread 08-24-2002, 04:12 PM   #12
Cisco
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Ouch!!!!

Did I strike a nerve!!!

I will withdraw my original statement. What I should have said was almost obsolete. I am only speaking in relation to my area so I don’t know what the standard is for the rest of the country. I agree that a full mud box is the highest of quality, but I have mouths to feed and bills to pay. There’s not enough call for it around here. Even on high end work the customer is not willing to foot the extra cost involved. It’s a hard sell when the majority of tile setters aren’t installing floated walls. For every full mud shower built I am sure there is 100’s of non mud showers. Mud showers in my area are far and few between even on high end and custom work.
Most of my installs are stone products. I only install, I don’t do renovations or complete bathrooms so the walls are usually covered already. Unless I come in to do shower pre-slopes I never see the framing. You have to be a licensed plumber to set shower pans so I dont do that either. I plumb and square the walls with the stone because I like it to be as perfect as possible and the framing usually sucks. I’ll float walls over CBU’s depending on the framing or material if its necessary. It would be nice if the framing was plumb and square but I have yet to see any.


My original post was “Doesn’t anyone do mud anymore" I was referring to floors not walls. NYC didn’t "Bite the bullet" I just do see too many so called "Pro tile setters" using mud.Maybe on commercial / union jobs in the city it may still be the standard but I don’t do Union work so I wouldn’t know. For the most part the current generation of tile setters have been using every other option available to them except mud. I’m not quite an “Old Timer” but I was taught by one.

I hope this clears up my original comments....


Ver 2.0c


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Unread 08-24-2002, 04:30 PM   #13
Dave Gobis
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John, did he say we were obsolete? What about nice young Trask? Cisco, seriously, there is a whole lot of mud'in going on. Big cities and all the way South till you hit Florida. There is a lot here in SC, NC, and GA. Inspected a job in Vegas on a tract house, all stone and mud in that subdivison and many more. Have a mud session coming up in AZ about mud and layout for the Ceramic Tile and Stone Association of Arizona. That group does a lot of mud in the Phoenix area on tract houses if you can believe it. One of the sessions is speed rail for counter-tops. Many are tile on mud. It is a regional thing to be sure and I would agree, it is based on availabilty.
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Unread 08-24-2002, 04:46 PM   #14
Tom
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Sorry for changing the subject, but I am willing to use mud on these floors, but usually it would be limited to about 1" thick. I just feel that 1/2" plywood and cbu is stronger, or that 1" isn't thick enough mud over a plank floor. The plank floors that I come across are usually old and very sturdy, but have some flexibility on point loads. The plywood makes them very strong. Please tell me if I'm wrong on this, as mud is faster, and I'd like to get more experience with it.
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Unread 08-24-2002, 04:59 PM   #15
Cisco
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Dave,

I do believe there is a lot of mudd'in going on. I think peoples initial response was based on my comments and there locality. I do have a buddy that moved to calif. years ago and all his jobs were mud, floors and walls. He had to re-sharpen his skils to compete. Around here it is more like a vanishing art and becoming less common over time on residential applications anyway. Most of the City (NYC) work I do is residential and is CBU's over metal stud or in some cases CBU's laminated to masonary walls. Rarely is there wood framing.

Maybe I should come to a class and sharpen my wall floating skils....


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